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I Didn't agree with all but it's clear PoE got much much easier since i joined in late closed beta. I hope it gets rebalanced when 3 difficulties are made into 2.
I'm just talking about how difficult it is to play through the game, given available skills and such, not talking about drop rates or craft rates, just monster/skill balance.
I am the light of the morning and the shadow on the wall, I am nothing and I am all. Last edited by Crackmonster on May 20, 2014, 5:17:48 PM
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Posted byCrackmonsteron May 20, 2014, 5:16:42 PM
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There's plenty of ways to keep the game more difficult and challenging.
-Play only the non permanent leagues.
-Play with no trading, or only with a small trade group of less than 12 or so people. The trade group must NEVER participate in transactions outside of the group.
-If playing in a trade group, only trade item for item. NEVER orbs.
-Play weird builds. Think outside the box and take the path of most resistance. Be the one who comes up with cool new ideas. Be the shepherd.
-Most importantly, DON'T no-life it. Play in moderation. Read a book or get a job occasionally. :D
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Posted byDeletedon May 20, 2014, 6:51:18 PM
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I have to outright disagree with your list of reasons about why you feel Path of Exile is easy. The title alone implys fuckery, However I have three questions to you that I'd love to get your honest responses to:
1) If your talking about the game being easy as far as monster difficulty, have you beaten Uber Queen Atziri? (That'd be a crazy hard feat that I'm sure no one would consider easy)
2) If your talking about the game being easy as far as being able to "acquire" items(trade, find or RMT) the best uniques, godly rares, maps and lots of currency(including mirrors); why would you bother to continue playing with those items, instead of trying to do the game again along with Uber Queen Atziri with blues or white items only?
3)Why would you have any complaints / gripes about legacy items, no matter if you have them or not? (Assuming that you dont PvP- otherwise yeah I could MAYBE see why) People having legacy items does not interfere with your own PvE experience, even with trading since you'd have to aim for non-legacy items if you cant afford them by chance.
Of course when you look at it overall, the legacy items that people have in standard would not prevent you from successfully completing your quests nor would it directly interfere with your own personal currency of orbs and items in your stash. Every single reason you mentioned, which you feel GGG should change would essentially make this game fucked for 98% of players. Hence why I disagree with your post.
Your issues are similar to other guys around that claim items and skill are overpowered, YET choose to make that claim to GGG, while in most cases are using them! I thought it'd be common sense for anyone that feels this way to ignore the items and skills; since obviously they wouldnt affect you personally by doing so (unlike other game issues that cannot be ignored like desync, etc) Each time the few of you guys make such outrageous claims and requests to GGG, asking them to nerf items,skills and buff monsters & bosses; it makes the game so much more harder for other players( new & veteran alike).
As for the rest of this thread, I saw a few responses that I think wrapped things up very nicely!
"
I KNOW MORE PEOPLE THAT LEFT BECAUSE POE IS EASY.
- 1 thread
- 1 player complained about the game difficulty
- ? players quit
I KNOW MORE PEOPLE THAT LEFT BECAUSE POE IS HARD.
- 34 threads
- 34 players complained about the game difficulty
- 7 players quit
I am pretty sure that the numbers will go up if I browse more page, but that would have taken too much time and I think those are more than enough.
Numbers don't lie.
Wow. That's prob the best response I've seen to a post around here. If not then it's damn sure one that's informative. Stated your opinion and even took the time out to link out the proof in the pudding. Damn. Salute to you dude!
"
Some of these sound like complaints about legacy leagues moreso than the game itself, which is designed around the concept of ladders. This is why GGG defaults new players to the 4 month leagues, it's simply impossible to balance the itemization while taking into account legacy items and infinite-duration economies. Legacy items are unavoidable because of the stance GGG has taken. They're not going to molest existing items, and the nerfs are solely forward looking. Standard is a league for people who aren't particularly bothered by this, and aren't too interested in the challenge aspect.
Comparing having a 6L then to a 6L now is complete nonsense. There's been a huge amount of power creep in various places, in mana, in weapons, and especially in monster life values as the endgame map pool has been pushed upward. In an old manifesto/patch notes, Chris said that 5/6L skills were supposed to be completely unsustainable. They certainly aren't now. 6L does not mean now what it meant in early closed beta. A 6L right now is too difficult for its cost, is meritless RNG-gating, and only serves to create player lotteries where veterans exploit new players because taking on the risk themselves is irrational. Really, the socketing system was never defensible to begin with, so any amount of budging GGG does here will only help.
Carto's doesn't exist in Invasion, and will not exist in its current form in the next leagues anyway. GGG can't change it mid-ladder, but they acknowledge it's broken.
Your analysis of what will happen as a result of the unique drop rate buffs mades very little sense. In part, the buff is there in order to keep the drop rates the same given the addition of a few new power pieces and a huge wad of leveling pieces. And the bulk of the buffing is going toward mid-tier uniques, not the "chase" ones. So few players even have these items (according to Qarl's post on Shav's) that it's a bit bizarre to see a post arguing against making them more accessible.
It's also interesting that you have nothing to say about the primary source of imbalance in the game, which has to do with tuning in player abilities and unique items. The reductions in player power should come in here, to reduce the disparity between specs. All this "content too EZ please buff" mentality does is make the game better for the top-tier specs and leave everything else in the dust, instead of adressing the real issue, which is the power of the top-tier specs.
But when you use the word "nerf," in any context, for player power or content power, everyone goes completely fucking apeshit. So I guess that's not a good solution.
+1^^^^ Agreed.
"
"
1. Legacy items:
2. Simplified Skill Tree:
3. Map drops:
4. Boss loot buffs:
5. Eternal Orbs:
6. Trade indexers:
7. Base item craft buff:
8. 6 link buffs:
9. Upcoming unique "buff":
I think it's a very good question to ask what it is meant by the terms "difficult" or "easy" in this context. I noticed none of these 9 points are related to the life and death of a character- combat difficulty. So what kind of difficulty is it that we're talking about here? I will attempt to classify:
1. Difficulty of acquiring legacy items? Trade prices? Not sure how to classify this one.
2. Difficulty of calculating an optimal path
3. Difficulty of maintaining supplies
4. Difficulty of finding items
5. Difficulty of boosting items
6. Difficulty of trading items
7. Difficulty of finding items
8. Difficulty of boosting items
9. Difficulty of finding items
6 of 9 are complaints are about the item grind, namely that it is "too easy." I question whether a grind is accurately described by the word "difficulty." I say a better descriptor would be the label "time-consuming." It's more of a question of how much time the game demands of the player before reaching various goals, and there's nothing hardcore about increasing that number of hours, nor casual about decreasing the quota. No skills are demonstrated either way, and skill is what differentiates hardcore from casual, not time investment.
+1 ^^^^^^^^Agreed.
"
The OP reads as a group of players who over-used various methods of flipping, scam trading and possibly some RMT to trivialize the content, then left because of the boredom caused by doing so.
Sounds like a request for a SFL to me :)
+1 ^^^^ Agreed.
This whole thread definitely looks like an attempt at changing the game to self benefit, while outright fucking over the rest of the players. Despite this, I do respect his opinions claiming that Path of Exile is easy. I do appreciate him going into detail about it.
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Posted byShanaeBluon May 20, 2014, 9:11:37 PM
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I have to outright disagree with your list of reasons about why you feel Path of Exile is easy. The title alone implys fuckery, However I have three questions to you that I'd love to get your honest responses to:
1) If your talking about the game being easy as far as monster difficulty, have you beaten Uber Queen Atziri? (That'd be a crazy hard feat that I'm sure no one would consider easy)
2) If your talking about the game being easy as far as being able to "acquire" items(trade, find or RMT) the best uniques, godly rares, maps and lots of currency(including mirrors); why would you bother to continue playing with those items, instead of trying to do the game again along with Uber Queen Atziri with blues or white items only?
3)Why would you have any complaints / gripes about legacy items, no matter if you have them or not? (Assuming that you dont PvP- otherwise yeah I could MAYBE see why) People having legacy items does not interfere with your own PvE experience, even with trading since you'd have to aim for non-legacy items if you cant afford them by chance.
Of course when you look at it overall, the legacy items that people have in standard would not prevent you from successfully completing your quests nor would it directly interfere with your own personal currency of orbs and items in your stash. Every single reason you mentioned, which you feel GGG should change would essentially make this game fucked for 98% of players. Hence why I disagree with your post.
Your issues are similar to other guys around that claim items and skill are overpowered, YET choose to make that claim to GGG, while in most cases are using them! I thought it'd be common sense for anyone that feels this way to ignore the items and skills; since obviously they wouldnt affect you personally by doing so (unlike other game issues that cannot be ignored like desync, etc) Each time the few of you guys make such outrageous claims and requests to GGG, asking them to nerf items,skills and buff monsters & bosses; it makes the game so much more harder for other players( new & veteran alike).
As for the rest of this thread, I saw a few responses that I think wrapped things up very nicely!
"
I KNOW MORE PEOPLE THAT LEFT BECAUSE POE IS EASY.
- 1 thread
- 1 player complained about the game difficulty
- ? players quit
I KNOW MORE PEOPLE THAT LEFT BECAUSE POE IS HARD.
- 34 threads
- 34 players complained about the game difficulty
- 7 players quit
I am pretty sure that the numbers will go up if I browse more page, but that would have taken too much time and I think those are more than enough.
Numbers don't lie.
Wow. That's prob the best response I've seen to a post around here. If not then it's damn sure one that's informative. Stated your opinion and even took the time out to link out the proof in the pudding. Damn. Salute to you dude!
"
Some of these sound like complaints about legacy leagues moreso than the game itself, which is designed around the concept of ladders. This is why GGG defaults new players to the 4 month leagues, it's simply impossible to balance the itemization while taking into account legacy items and infinite-duration economies. Legacy items are unavoidable because of the stance GGG has taken. They're not going to molest existing items, and the nerfs are solely forward looking. Standard is a league for people who aren't particularly bothered by this, and aren't too interested in the challenge aspect.
Comparing having a 6L then to a 6L now is complete nonsense. There's been a huge amount of power creep in various places, in mana, in weapons, and especially in monster life values as the endgame map pool has been pushed upward. In an old manifesto/patch notes, Chris said that 5/6L skills were supposed to be completely unsustainable. They certainly aren't now. 6L does not mean now what it meant in early closed beta. A 6L right now is too difficult for its cost, is meritless RNG-gating, and only serves to create player lotteries where veterans exploit new players because taking on the risk themselves is irrational. Really, the socketing system was never defensible to begin with, so any amount of budging GGG does here will only help.
Carto's doesn't exist in Invasion, and will not exist in its current form in the next leagues anyway. GGG can't change it mid-ladder, but they acknowledge it's broken.
Your analysis of what will happen as a result of the unique drop rate buffs mades very little sense. In part, the buff is there in order to keep the drop rates the same given the addition of a few new power pieces and a huge wad of leveling pieces. And the bulk of the buffing is going toward mid-tier uniques, not the "chase" ones. So few players even have these items (according to Qarl's post on Shav's) that it's a bit bizarre to see a post arguing against making them more accessible.
It's also interesting that you have nothing to say about the primary source of imbalance in the game, which has to do with tuning in player abilities and unique items. The reductions in player power should come in here, to reduce the disparity between specs. All this "content too EZ please buff" mentality does is make the game better for the top-tier specs and leave everything else in the dust, instead of adressing the real issue, which is the power of the top-tier specs.
But when you use the word "nerf," in any context, for player power or content power, everyone goes completely fucking apeshit. So I guess that's not a good solution.
+1^^^^ Agreed.
"
"
1. Legacy items:
2. Simplified Skill Tree:
3. Map drops:
4. Boss loot buffs:
5. Eternal Orbs:
6. Trade indexers:
7. Base item craft buff:
8. 6 link buffs:
9. Upcoming unique "buff":
I think it's a very good question to ask what it is meant by the terms "difficult" or "easy" in this context. I noticed none of these 9 points are related to the life and death of a character- combat difficulty. So what kind of difficulty is it that we're talking about here? I will attempt to classify:
1. Difficulty of acquiring legacy items? Trade prices? Not sure how to classify this one.
2. Difficulty of calculating an optimal path
3. Difficulty of maintaining supplies
4. Difficulty of finding items
5. Difficulty of boosting items
6. Difficulty of trading items
7. Difficulty of finding items
8. Difficulty of boosting items
9. Difficulty of finding items
6 of 9 are complaints are about the item grind, namely that it is "too easy." I question whether a grind is accurately described by the word "difficulty." I say a better descriptor would be the label "time-consuming." It's more of a question of how much time the game demands of the player before reaching various goals, and there's nothing hardcore about increasing that number of hours, nor casual about decreasing the quota. No skills are demonstrated either way, and skill is what differentiates hardcore from casual, not time investment.
+1 ^^^^^^^^Agreed.
"
The OP reads as a group of players who over-used various methods of flipping, scam trading and possibly some RMT to trivialize the content, then left because of the boredom caused by doing so.
Sounds like a request for a SFL to me :)
+1 ^^^^ Agreed.
This whole thread definitely looks like an attempt at changing the game to self benefit, while outright fucking over the rest of the players. Despite this, I do respect his opinions claiming that Path of Exile is easy. I do appreciate him going into detail about it.
I don't know what genre you think this is but the game is about loot, finding efficient builds to push through content, the only difficulty is finding or crafting the gear. There is absolutely nothing challenging about the game play itself, you can play in maps with mediocre gear. The reason PoE attracted me at first was the skill tree, the complexity of matching the tree to the gear was great for theory crafting.
1. Would love to fight uber Atziri, she's locked behind layers of the bad RNG. If I could fight normal Atziri all day I would, because just like Piety if enough people bitch they will nerf it.
2. Acquiring gear should be the challenge, the monsters aren't challenging at all, and when they are they just fucking nerf them because people want to face tank everything. I cringe every time I hear about being gear checked, even without trading you can farm say cruel merveil over and over until you get decent gear,or be lazy and buy it. Again, I don't play games to challenge myself, I play to challenge the game. The only difficult thing to do is keep upgrading your gear.
3. I have some, if I have them I will use them. The game making them available to me is a joke, I'm not going to vendor them, they shouldn't exist in my inventory. I do challenge myself against this by doing temporary leagues, but this killed permanant leagues for many.
I tell you all what, give me a skill to use that is a viable main skill, and I will do palace Dominus with nothing more than a 4 link,using my own tree and no uniques. The final end game content, and I will wreck it. Notregret did it in blues which is far from realistic self found.
I did it already with self casting spark for "fun".
Planning the tree was more difficult, sustaining map pools required management, 6 linking wasn't viewed as something everyone should have. Monsters were harder giving a sense of accomplishment when you kill it. Piety lightning balls, kudoku on ledge..
Atziri as a boss was a good addition, best one since Vaal Oversoul, and they stuck her in a slot machine.
I guess the point is, most of the complaints about gear being too hard to come by makes no sense because the game doesn't require much to challenge you or your gear and gets to a point where you just make your own difficulty.
Upgrading items should be difficult and challenging because nothing else in the game is.
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Posted byWorldbreakeron May 20, 2014, 11:25:34 PMAlpha Member
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I think you're the one who should watch it. The numbers don't lie, the people does. According to the percentage (numbers) said in the video, only 25-27% wants dark and rich coffee. The people lies when they ask for dark,rich coffee when what they really want is milky and less rich coffee. So there.
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Yes, hence the the statement; numbers don't lie. People and numbers are different thing.
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By saying this you imply that they care. Else why would you post it?
More people left because it was too hard (for them). In the end, game is marked as "hardcore", right? So, your point being?
Yes I know you won't get the point and I totally understand that.
If it is not much to ask, the three of you, can you guys please keep the discussion on topic and focus on the original post. If you have nothing to reply on the original post discussion, please stop quoting my post and making yourself looks like [removed by support]. Thanks.
And it looks like to me that you can't discuss on topic, assuming that you are right, and refusing to respond to what I said. Also, you going into name calling proves my point of your inability to discuss. :)
Stuff wanted by many aren't always the best. Guess how MANY people voted to crucify Jesus? ; - D. Because, you know, numbers! Going by your logic, they were right! (I'm not a religious person, this just came to my mind. Not meaning to offend anyone too - so refrain from going "omgbbqyouhurtmahfeelz"). Game was never targeted to everyone. And Devs want if to stay that way - be it "omgRNG" or any other.
Real knowledge is to know the extent of one's ignorance.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
https://joeduncan123.imgur.com
https://joeduncan1234.imgur.com
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Posted byPerqon May 21, 2014, 1:31:33 AM
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The OP says that THEY know more people that left because PoE is easy. The OP did not say that EVERYONE left PoE because it was easy, or that the LEADING CAUSE of people leaving the game is because it is to easy.
I say this because a lot of people seem to be arguing over whether or not the game is easy, and that really isn't the point at all. The point - if I may be so bold as to assume I understand the OP's intentions - is that GGG have reneged, in a certain sense, on their promise of bringing a 'hardcore' ARPG experience. What they have succeeded in doing is bringing a grindy ARPG experience.
"the premier Action RPG for hardcore gamers."
-GGG
Happy hunting/fishing
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Posted byWittgensteinon May 21, 2014, 2:20:44 AMAlpha Member
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And now this thread will devolve into a debate about what hardcore even means....
Even with all of the changes that GGG is planning to make, this game will be every bit as "hardcore" then as it is now and as it ever has been. These few small changes to the game are not making it go from one extreme to another. Its still the same experience. Its a very very grindy game with some deep interesting systems, with a high focus on trading.
Standard Forever
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Posted byiamstrykeron May 21, 2014, 2:30:17 AM
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The OP says that THEY know more people that left because PoE is easy. The OP did not say that EVERYONE left PoE because it was easy, or that the LEADING CAUSE of people leaving the game is because it is to easy.
I say this because a lot of people seem to be arguing over whether or not the game is easy, and that really isn't the point at all. The point - if I may be so bold as to assume I understand the OP's intentions - is that GGG have reneged, in a certain sense, on their promise of bringing a 'hardcore' ARPG experience. What they have succeeded in doing is bringing a grindy ARPG experience.
Mostly true, I don't think I should be able to beat the game in blue gear or even shit rare gear. I want balance between the difficulty of content vs difficulty in upgrading gear. Like I said, I don't agree with some of those issues, but when I play I want a challenge, not one I create, one put in front of me.
If they can't make the actual gameplay challenging, at least make good gear challenging. If you want to buff drop rates, improve monsters without one shot mechanics. I think D3 hit it on the head with the walling/vorpal mods that tested your reaction, I was reminded of it because of this charity event. Some invasion bosses were fun and challenging to fight. The ones using bear trap, frost wall, freeze, bleed... there are so many good mechanics in the game, use them them! Then buff loot.
Also, instead of doing BoA to fix trade maybe look to the Vaal Orb and Mirror mechanics. Trade or drop an item and its locked, not to the account, but the item can no longer be modified. (Just a suggestion, even if a bad one)
In short, gameplay isn't challenging, they have made the rest less challenging, leave me something please.
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Posted byWorldbreakeron May 21, 2014, 3:03:01 AMAlpha Member
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"
"
I think it's a very good question to ask what it is meant by the terms "difficult" or "easy" in this context. I noticed none of these 9 points are related to the life and death of a character- combat difficulty. So what kind of difficulty is it that we're talking about here? I will attempt to classify:
1. Difficulty of acquiring legacy items? Trade prices? Not sure how to classify this one.
2. Difficulty of calculating an optimal path
3. Difficulty of maintaining supplies
4. Difficulty of finding items
5. Difficulty of boosting items
6. Difficulty of trading items
7. Difficulty of finding items
8. Difficulty of boosting items
9. Difficulty of finding items
6 of 9 are complaints are about the item grind, namely that it is "too easy." I question whether a grind is accurately described by the word "difficulty." I say a better descriptor would be the label "time-consuming." It's more of a question of how much time the game demands of the player before reaching various goals, and there's nothing hardcore about increasing that number of hours, nor casual about decreasing the quota. No skills are demonstrated either way, and skill is what differentiates hardcore from casual, not time investment.
Responding primarily to the bolded part (of this generally excellent post).
I tend to agree with the "Rhys rubric" of what hardcore means. I'm not going to repost his explanation, but he splits hardcore up into four axes: investment of knowledge, investment of time, investment of skill, and investment of emotion. The way I see it, lengthening the grind does increase "hardcoreness" along the axis of time, but it jeopardizes things along the axis of emotion. It's that final axis which goes to shit when one feels their farming is a never-ending monotony. On the other hand, shortening the grind may make gains in investment of emotion, but suffer losses along the time axis.
Instead I feel very strongly that systems should be implemented to shorten the grind if one invests in the two other axes: knowledge and skill. It's difficult to invest skill in the game currently when performance issues (such as desync and video processing lag) jeopardize that investment, so mitigating the damage along that axis is critical. It's also important to implement game knowledge tests which are designed to be resistant to "community solutions" such as online guides or videos, and instead require a more dynamic knowledge and on-the-spot decision-making process.
When players employ all four axes this way, the result should be an experience with a good balance between time investment and emotional investment, where rewards are still not coming too fast, but also not so slow that players lose interest in excessive repetition. The good news is, with knowledge and skill investment rewarded, it will take players longer to lose that interest, because they'll be more engaged in the first place.
In any case, the double-edge-sword nature of crude grind-length changes makes them an ineffective method for improving the game. I'm not saying there's no room for discussion, but I feel a great many who advocate changes in this department aren't fully appreciating the negative consequences. Instead, it's better to find avenues where more is generally just better — such as skill investment — and pursue those instead.
When Stephen Colbert was killed by HYDRA's Project Insight in 2014, the comedy world lost a hero. Since his life model decoy isn't up to the task, please do not mistake my performance as political discussion. I'm just doing what Steve would have wanted. Last edited by ScrotieMcB on May 21, 2014, 3:08:12 AM
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Posted byScrotieMcBon May 21, 2014, 3:06:03 AM
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"
I tend to agree with the "Rhys rubric" of what hardcore means. I'm not going to repost his explanation, but he splits hardcore up into four axes: investment of knowledge, investment of time, investment of skill, and investment of emotion. The way I see it, lengthening the grind does increase "hardcoreness" along the axis of time, but it jeopardizes things along the axis of emotion. It's that final axis which goes to shit when one feels their farming is a never-ending monotony. On the other hand, shortening the grind may make gains in investment of emotion, but suffer losses along the time axis.
It's strange they aren't worried about trading directly shrinking three of those four to tinkerbell levels, and I can't really imagine the fourth one being at any significant level if the other three aren't, none of those are really independent but emotion factor is very rare to exist independently.
Very, very, rare indeed, it's those games that don't ask for much time, they're simple so they don't require much knowledge or skill, but you can still occasionally play them for years on end, and you got no idea why the hell you like them so much. I probably got one that fits the bill for me - pocket tanks.
Wish the armchair developers would go back to developing armchairs.
◄[www.moddb.com/mods/balancedux]►
◄[www.moddb.com/mods/one-vision1]►
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Posted byraicson May 21, 2014, 3:36:01 AM
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