So, its time to get rid of Damage Reflect mod on maps

i am seeing this from the next point: it must be fun or it should be removed.
is it fun? - should be the core question of game design.

so, we have the situation: reflect mod just appeared. options:
- reroll it (it is not fun, you could spent currency on zana mods that actually add fun)
- change gems, rings, pantheon (this process doesnt make gameplay fun)
- trade away map (map trading process doesnt make gameplay fun)
- do the map without gear swap (you die and this is not fun)

so, with enough "deep" analizis, i would say devs should remove reflect mods because they are not adding ANY kind of fun to the gameplay. this is rudimental design failure that has no reason to exist, even economically speaking.

same things about temporal chains mod.

also, i could understand if they would keep all hard and tedious mods and even add more of those if they would not be obligatory. i mean, if you would be capable of sustaining maps without adding mods on them. if a player wants just to run map, he can do it without even alching it and he can sustain, for example, mid-tier maps this way, im okay with this. but the problem is if you are not alching you cant sustain t6+ maps.

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Tainted_Fate wrote:

same things about temporal chains mod.

Or use a warding flask.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

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Shazamarang wrote:

My problem with removing reflect isn't because I think reflect has a good enough justification to exist in the game. If it wasn't already a thing, I probably wouldn't add it to the game. My problem is removing difficulty from the game to appease the people who don't want to play around it.

its not difficulty. Im all for good difficulty, reflect is not that, its nothing to do with difficulty. Either it doesnt effect you and its free quant or it kills you so you reroll it, neither of those things are actually challenging gameplay, they do NOTHING for game difficulty.

I dont see it as dont want to play around it, I just dont see virtually any play involved and I dont see a reason for it to exist.

Its the sort of nonsense that is put in the game to pretend theres difficulty, its like a placebo for actually challenging, skill required difficulty, actual in game real time action mechanics that require you to employ actual real time playing skill. Reflect is not that, its just a bullshit binary yes/no question at the map rolling stage, thats all it is, and that is not difficulty, its not skill, its not worthy of being a mechanic in the game because its not gameplay, theres no play in reflect for difficulty to be a factor in it in 99% of cases.

So, what you're implying is that you'd rather see maps take more mechanical skill than build preparation? That seems like an oxymoron, considering the point you're arguing for, that being removing reflect, is a step into reducing the amount of effort needed to play the game.

Path of Exile has literally never been about mechanical skill, at least not as it's main focus. Even back in the day before all the power creep, the game wasn't about mechanical skill. I'd say at most the game's roughly 90% build and gear, and 10% skill, maybe slightly more for toughies like uber Atziri & Elder. It's always been a game about building and gearing a character, and the mental skill it takes to do so. Even now, where almost every other player mindlessly copies someone else, the game is more about building a character, and subsequently abusing the mechanics.

Reflect is 100% a factor of difficulty, and arguing against that is plain stupid. By that argument almost every map mod that greatly hurts builds enough to where you have to play around them isn't difficulty. Elemental Weakness maps aren't difficulty because they take no skill to avoid, capping resistance isn't skilful. Temporal Chains isn't difficulty because it takes no skill to deal with, all you have to do is use a warding flask or use Roots. No regen isn't difficulty because it doesn't take skill to leech life, and crippling my Righteous Fire build is bullshit. Damage mods aren't difficulty because it's not my fault that I don't have enough mitigation. Reflect isn't difficulty because it doesn't take any skill to equip some form of conversion or change my pantheon and increase mitigation. Yet literally every single one of these map mods is cited as too difficult. Not every build is meant to be able to do every single map mod or piece of content, and thinking otherwise is fucking stupid.

Side note, I guarantee the OP has never played a righteous fire character, because if they ever had there's no way they'd dismiss it so easily. Righteous fire isn't even the only build that literally cannot run maps with a certain mod. I mean, ailment avoidance is a map mod and that cripples some builds.

We can argue about the definition of "difficulty" all day, but that's not the point.

Of course me paying 1 chaos to get rid of it can be considered "difficult" as I lost part of my wealth.

Of course I could cripple my damage output by swapping multipliers for life gain on hit etc, swap good rings for sybils and then have a harder time in the map because of my weakened build ... Yes, more "difficult" (not sure anyone would do this instead of rerolling the map).

But the real issue is the binary nature.

"monsters deal more damage" is not binary. I can maybe take it on a lvl 6 map but not on a lvl 14 map, I can maybe take it alone, but not in combination with another map mod, or not against a certain map boss. I will make decisions.

"reflect" is binary. I can either ignore it completely (because of my ascendancy) or it outright kills me, no matter what else is on the map.

so, it's time to get rid of players trying to water down the game mechanics to a plain "who kills faster".

we're already too far down the road of damage output being the only relevant factor for a build.

Yeah it's sort off like the old Blood Magic map mod which GGG did end up removing after a couple years of feedback. Some players ignored the mod completely and some couldn't play it at all. Same story for reflect. There are a lot of builds that can't get the necessary leech/mitigation to play a reflect map so they are forced to reroll it.

I don't really mind it but it is a binary option. Few builds can adapt their setup on the fly to counter the map mod which I think is the intention.

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Nephalim wrote:

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Tainted_Fate wrote:

same things about temporal chains mod.

Or use a warding flask.

does this add more fun?

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Tainted_Fate wrote:

i am seeing this from the next point: it must be fun or it should be removed.
is it fun? - should be the core question of game design.

so, we have the situation: reflect mod just appeared. options:
- reroll it (it is not fun, you could spent currency on zana mods that actually add fun)
- change gems, rings, pantheon (this process doesnt make gameplay fun)
- trade away map (map trading process doesnt make gameplay fun)
- do the map without gear swap (you die and this is not fun)

Trading is not fun, ok. Let's remove it from the game.

Well, really, you can say that IIQ and IIR from mods does not add fun. But I dunno. It increases the probability of good things to spawn. And grabbing them is fun.

Enjoyment is relative. I enjoy playing melee builds, whereas the majority of the community does not. Since I'm in the minority, does that mean melee is overall not a fun play-style? Should melee be removed from the game?

Similarly, I enjoy running difficult map mods, including reflect. Clearly a lot of people would disagree with me that difficult maps are enjoyable as well.

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Shagsbeard wrote:

You want a build to rule them all. To be able to do everything. That pretty much means no other build will be considered "viable" except by hipsters. Every build should have a weakness that is difficult to overcome. Reflect is serving that purpose. It keeps people who like builds that clear stuff before they even see it on the screen in check.

If you're playing a build that can't take a reflect map, then reroll it. If it's corrupted, you can re-roll it with the 3:1 recipe once you get three of them. That's the cost associated with not being able to run them. Same goes with Temporal Chains. There are builds that run that fine... but it's not for every build.

I'd like to see them encourage these mods by granting them higher IIR/IIQ so that people will value running them, and perhaps build a character suited for them. When a mod gets re-rolled too often, you know that risk:reward is out of whack. Upping reward is a option over removing risk.

Although I agree that reflect should stay as a map mod, I feel like your initial point is kind of moot here.

There are a fair few builds that can run every map mod with no problem (GC miner being the one me and my mapping partner are using this league.) and them existing doesn't mean the map mod restricted builds cease to exist or lose viability, it just means they have to use a chaos orb every now and then when they see a mod they dont like.