So, its time to get rid of Damage Reflect mod on maps

I don't know why reflect was never a mechanic that was mimiced like corrupting blood. That way if you died it's because you didn't pace yourself. I'd rather see it made like this but who knows what's really a good option.


1) Monsters apply a debuff when hit with physical/elemental damage. Stacks up to 50 times.

Players affected by debuff take .20% reflected damage per stack. Maximum 10% reflected damage. Debuff lasts 2 seconds.

2) Monsters apply a debuff when hit with chaos damage. Stacks up to 10 times.

Players affected by debuff take 1% more damage when hit. Maximum 10% more damage taken. Debuff lasts 2 seconds.

3) Monsters that apply debuff have a distinguishable aura/particle that provides clarity to player.

4) Have debuff removable by curse/ailment for flask immunity/removability/provide more counterplay? (possibly classify the debuff as a curse? idk.

no.

Sorry for the long delay in responding, the end of the year is really hardness at work haha

el_chanis, i agree with every builds have weakness, but reflect is just a mod without a properly defense to counter, of course, except going immune or build massively around him.

Bone2flesh, Bakuhakubasugasu, i'm not against reflect, I just think it's pretty much exaggerated as a map mod.

I see the mod map as a punishment for those who do not diversify the attack or defense. Let's take Rf as an example.

why no regen for RFs is fair.

1- Is only one build
2- The original purpose of the righteous fire is not to make active 100% of the time, but the game does not prohibit you from doing so.
3- We have anothers easy options to counter the mod (leech, flask, lgoh, etc.)
4- Doesn't need a char specific to deal with no regen mod, etc.

As you see the build lock herself against no regen, not the other way round. The same happens with builds specifics for only leech/block/Armor/Evasion/Crit etc.

Now Reflect have the same treatment? I do not think so, because you need a specific build or equipment to deal with it.

But this is not the problem of reflect mod on the maps, The real problem is that there are only a few people who actually play the mod.

"Hey u crazy? i play traps so i can play reflect". No, you dont play reflect you only avoid him.

This is the true nature of reflect as a map mod nowadays:

Immune builds: "yay! free mod"
Non-immune builds : "damn, need to reroll"

that's why i prefer a adjustment on reflect, not to remove him completely, but to enjoy him.

z1754888: Its nice ideia, I would really like to see ideas like yours or the ratedetar being developed by devs to adjust the reflect in the next leagues.

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Peterlerock wrote:

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Molochmane wrote:

lol oh boy, do you really want to dumb down the game more? there's a reason for a chaos sink...just reroll your maps.

And that is not dumb?

All the reflect mod does is to make me pay about 100 chaos orbs per league for rerolling, unless I am immune to it (which I never gear for, but I take it if it is for free like on a slayer).

Sure I can pay these 100 chaos orbs.
But why should I have to?
What does it really add to my gameplay?

yep, its completely redundant.

People are saying we need the chaos sink... nope, no we dont at all. So you lsoe 100 chaos per league, ok, so drop 100 less chaos per person per league. Done. They dont need to drop stuff that they need to take out again. If those 100 chaos are a problem then dont have them drop, you dont need a redundant outdated silly map mod like reflect to remove them.

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Shazamarang wrote:

My problem with removing reflect isn't because I think reflect has a good enough justification to exist in the game. If it wasn't already a thing, I probably wouldn't add it to the game. My problem is removing difficulty from the game to appease the people who don't want to play around it.

its not difficulty. Im all for good difficulty, reflect is not that, its nothing to do with difficulty. Either it doesnt effect you and its free quant or it kills you so you reroll it, neither of those things are actually challenging gameplay, they do NOTHING for game difficulty.

I dont see it as dont want to play around it, I just dont see virtually any play involved and I dont see a reason for it to exist.

Its the sort of nonsense that is put in the game to pretend theres difficulty, its like a placebo for actually challenging, skill required difficulty, actual in game real time action mechanics that require you to employ actual real time playing skill. Reflect is not that, its just a bullshit binary yes/no question at the map rolling stage, thats all it is, and that is not difficulty, its not skill, its not worthy of being a mechanic in the game because its not gameplay, theres no play in reflect for difficulty to be a factor in it in 99% of cases.

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crystalwitch wrote:

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

Theres a difference between complaining about reflect in the sense of a noob saying omg i keep dying to reflect omg plz nerf... and then extremely experienced players sitting back looking at the mechanic from a detached, objective point of view and saying actually, this mechanic is pretty retarded right?

Funnily enough, as an extremely experienced player I sit back and look at damage reflection objectively and say, actually, do we really need to be dealing all of this damage? We're deleting bosses in a matter of seconds anyway.

but it doesnt stop those builds, it doesnt effect them at all. No one is dealing less damage because reflect maps exist, I hear what ur saying but it doesnt actually make sense in the reflect situation. Its like people have this hangover idea that its there to curb really strong builds and it needs to stay because of that... it doesnt do that, at all, it doesnt counter strong builds, it doesnt force them to be more balanced or do less damage.

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el_chanis wrote:

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

why does it exist? What is it bringing to the table? What good comes of it? What bad comes of it? We dont need it imo, its just mod bloat for the sake of it, occasionally kills someone imo unfairly when they didnt realise it was reflect, just forces rerolls or is free quantity rather than offering a challenge in 99% of cases.


Its not about how do you deal with this reflect map in front of you right now, its the bigger question of should reflect maps be in the game for players to deal with? The game needs people looking past their own immediate situation and interests to the wider picture of the games state.

This is exactly why Reflect SHOULD exist. If it doesn't, high clearspeed builds will be the only way to go, because there will be no restrain to them. Reflective makes sure that, from time to time, those build have to, either reroll, or take baby steps in the map.

nope, they never take baby steps. A build that is effected by reflect, even with mediocre damage, like 1/10 of mathil type damage, will INSTANTLY die to reflect with 1 click. Even average clearspeed builds that are not chaos or traps etc dont take baby steps, they just skip that map. It doesnt restrain them, it does NOTHING to counter clearspeed builds, it does nothing to counter any problematic build or playstyle, at all.

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el_chanis wrote:

to give some perspective to this incredibly whinny thread.

My build relys heavily in hp regen. Should ggg remove "players cannot regenerate life" mod from maps so i can play more relaxed? How about critical damage on mobs, thats a RNG mechanic with almost no defense against. Or how about invoke monsters from beyond? you are killing things nicely and then BOOM, Abaxoth rapes you on the spot.

THe point is: all the reasoning behind this thread can be applied to all map mods, so, any argument in favor of it, goes against the core aspect of the game: "sometimes gets really difficult and its up to you to adapt and compensate"

Its not a whinny thread, its people discussing a mechanic, it has nothing to do with whining, thats something you are bringing to the table. Were just gamers discussing the game in an objective manner.

This reasoning cant be applied to all map mods at all. The other mods make the game more difficult and you play them with most builds right? Ones that you cant shouldnt be there. Binary mods that, in most cases, either dont effect you or you dont play them, they shouldnt exist. Theyre bad design because they dont add difficulty or challenge, they add nothing to the gameplay other than stopping people playing unid maps. Mods that are worthy of existing actually change the gameplay in the map and can be played by most builds.

The amount of builds that reflect changes the gameplay for are like 1% of builds at best. The other 99% it has no actual effect on their gameplay, its a mechanical yes/no, are you immune to this sort of reflect? No matter what you answer, the map you end up playing has 0 effect on your actual play from reflect.

no regen truly shuts down maybe 5% of builds at best, and maybe 5% are unaffected by it, the other 90% notice an effect on their gameplay that makes the game more difficult.




Good mods are mods that 80% of builds can play and effects their character, makes the map more difficult and they actually play it, experience that difficulty. They deserve to be in the game, they serve a gameplay purpose. Reflect serves no worthy purpose right now, and Im not sure as a map mod it ever really did in a wider sense.

There was a much, much bigger case for keeping reflect rares than the map mod, the map mod was shit, rares u HAVE to deal with because theyre in ever zone, you cant reroll them. They ditched the rares, that was the end of any meaning for reflect in the game.

Reflect mods are good. They keep your op builds in check. They take you out of your autopilot mod and force you to pay attention to what you are doing.

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golan4840 wrote:

Reflect mods are good. They keep your op builds in check. They take you out of your autopilot mod and force you to pay attention to what you are doing.

This is absolutely hillarious.

It's not like Totems, Traps, and Mines, Elementalists, or DoT builds (Vortex, RF) are completely running wild in the meta amirite?

That's my biggest gripe with Reflect.... it's not holding power builds in check, it's just extra-punishing the builds that already struggle without it.

And even in the fantasy scenario where the main OP builds were somehow affected by Reflect.... it doesn't force them to play carefuly or slowly, it forces them to reroll (or toss out/sell if corrupted) any maps that roll reflect and continue to play as if it didn't exist anyways.

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GoldDragon32 wrote:

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golan4840 wrote:

Reflect mods are good. They keep your op builds in check. They take you out of your autopilot mod and force you to pay attention to what you are doing.

This is absolutely hillarious.

It's not like Totems, Traps, and Mines, Elementalists, or DoT builds (Vortex, RF) are completely running wild in the meta amirite?

That's my biggest gripe with Reflect.... it's not holding power builds in check, it's just extra-punishing the builds that already struggle without it.

And even in the fantasy scenario where the main OP builds were somehow affected by Reflect.... it doesn't force them to play carefuly or slowly, it forces them to reroll (or toss out/sell if corrupted) any maps that roll reflect and continue to play as if it didn't exist anyways.

ya its such a stupid theory that reflect counters anything at all, its a complete joke that anyone buys into this idea.

Thank fuck for reflect otherwise we would have players like mathil in the game right?

This is the kind of lologic reflects existence is based on. Its 2018, weve seen this play out for 5 years now, time to grow up, be honest about whats taken place and accept that some of those ideas we all had back in 2013 were misguided nonsense.

We should be demanding an actual challenging game where real time encounters with monsters matter, mechanics where we dont win or lose the game standing at our stash making an easy calculation.

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poeGT wrote:

You can't have it all. Yeah it's annoying when you alc a map and see a "reflect" mode but just throw it in your sale tab and move on. There's plenty of builds who don't care about certain reflect mobs and they'll buy it off you.

This is exactly what I was going to post. Also you can't keep cutting away at a game like this or you're just left with a full-proof boring game.

Trust me when I was getting my T1-9 atlas maps done on my sunder seeing "physical reflect" was annoying One time I bought a bunch of missing maps and 4 of them rolled reflect when alcing. However, someone always has a build that sees that as NO issue, just throw it in your tab and move on. Or if you're SSF, save it for a build that doesn't care about reflect.

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Nephalim wrote:

The main reason is that there are still ASC classes with reflection mitigation and GGG would need more time to rework these if they removed reflect from maps.


I still agree reflect has no place as a random map affix after it was removed from mobs. It's simply the fall out of a once very overpowered game mechanic (instant leech) that forced a very punishing counter mechanic (reflect).

No they wouldn't, reflect could and should still be used properly with bosses, so their would still always be a need or desire for these types of mitigation. They just have no place in map mods, and should never have been a thing.

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poeGT wrote:

This is exactly what I was going to post. Also you can't keep cutting away at a game like this or you're just left with a full-proof boring game.

I doubt any of us is arguing for a foolproof game. If anything, I want more difficulty.
There are plenty of mods they could add instead.

- monsters penetrate 15% of your resistances
- monsters have 20/30/50 spell block
- all rare monsters have proximity shield
- monsters have 25% to deal double damage
- how about instead of the players, point blank is given to the monsters?
-...

In the current system and depending on the build you play, there are a couple mods that are binary, you ignore the mod or you cannot play it at all.
Immunities, no regen, no leech, but the biggest offender is reflect.

How it should be:
"oh shit, this may be too dangerous, but maybe if I play it carefully..."

How it is:
"OK, I have to reroll/sell these two maps, cannot run them at all."

(and again, none of us can not deal with rerolling or selling a map. But that doesn't make it good game design)