So, its time to get rid of Damage Reflect mod on maps

for me to remove the reflect mod from maps is not a matter of difficulty or fun, I believe it is in the mechanics itself, so i think it would be better to have it just in monsters rare/uniques/nemesis/bosses or be fix by other ways.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

I dont think reflect map mod serves a purpose, I think its a stupid mod and should be removed from maps.


It either A. doesnt effect you because its phys reflect and youre pure ele, or pure chaos, or traps etc, so you run it and its completely invisible, has no effect at all.

Or B. you are running a phys build, its phys reflect so you dont run it, you reroll it.


What purpose did that serve? It just made 1 guy reroll the map, it didnt change anyones build, it didnt make anyone play differently, it doesnt challenge people, its just if it effects you then you dont play it and therefor it doesnt effect you.

It essentially just becomes a currency sink, yes, that is all that it actually achieves aside from instakilling some poor fuck who was playing too many hours too late and misread his map once in a blue moon. Why do we need it as a currency sink? We run a map, pick up a chaos orb, next map requires us to use it to get rid of a mod... ok, if the chaos orb existing is the problem just dont drop the fking chaos orb to begin with, you dont need mostly redundant redundant, occsionally gotcha LOL!!!! HAHA!!!! map mods that just waste peoples time standing at their stash looking out for bullshit and rerolling it to not have that chaos orb exist.



Remember when reflect was not only super common on maps but also on rares, and the reflect on random rare mobs was as super harsh and HA UR DEAD LOL!!!!!! as the currenct map mods? It just turned hc league into path of spork totems. It just becomes why selfcast and die when I can run traps or totems and be immune to reflect? Why would the game wish to encourage using totems or traps over self casting? This is the thing with it, its not like reflect existing on those mobs or now on map mods like this makes people say hey, I need to up my defenses and have a balanced build. That doesnt happen, you dont play self cast arc and decide to go less glass cannon and get better defense to survive reflect maps, you just can never do reflect maps as self cast arc, at all, regardless of how you build it, so if really needed or wanted to play reflect maps for whatever reason youd play arc traps or essence drain instead. why is that a good thing?


I think those mods are just clinging to a past, an outdated way of thinking by the devs that they just need to get over and move beyond.

I really dont care but this post is probably the best analysis your going to get regarding the question at hand. Really nicely laid out and explained.

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Tainted_Fate wrote:

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Nephalim wrote:

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Tainted_Fate wrote:

same things about temporal chains mod.

Or use a warding flask.

does this add more fun?

About as much fun as corrupting blood, freeze, chill, burn, poison.

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Shazamarang wrote:

So, what you're implying is that you'd rather see maps take more mechanical skill than build preparation? That seems like an oxymoron, considering the point you're arguing for, that being removing reflect, is a step into reducing the amount of effort needed to play the game.

it really isnt.


it doesnt remove the effort needed to play the game at all, unless you consider using a chaos orb effort, in which case were just fundamentally opposed in how we see the potential of arpg games. I cant get on the wavelength of someone who not only considers that effort but also a good, healthy effort that brings something positive to the game.

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Shazamarang wrote:

Reflect is 100% a factor of difficulty, and arguing against that is plain stupid. By that argument almost every map mod that greatly hurts builds enough to where you have to play around them isn't difficulty. Elemental Weakness maps aren't difficulty because they take no skill to avoid, capping resistance isn't skilful. Temporal Chains isn't difficulty because it takes no skill to deal with, all you have to do is use a warding flask or use Roots. No regen isn't difficulty because it doesn't take skill to leech life, and crippling my Righteous Fire build is bullshit. Damage mods aren't difficulty because it's not my fault that I don't have enough mitigation.

I disagree with almost everything here.

ele weak is not neccesarily game difficulty because it can be fully mitigated. However to do so is gear pressure which is good for endgame item progression. Everyone is already getting resists, you just need more of them. The idea that reflect is pantheon + ring... nope, that will not do for an awful lot of builds, Id say most builds, they will still die. Ele weak is more of what you already have, OR its a flask, and maintaining flask uptime has a skill based factor, OR it is taking a hit to your defenses that makes the game more dangerous. All of these things are good for the game, unlike reflect.


Temp chains is aids, if it was my game id remove it from map pool, but its there and flask uptime has a play skill based element.

Even if you leech life with no regen you are still losing a substantial amount of life per second which is reducing your defence. It also means something like bloodrage will degen you, it makes dealing with ground degens problematic, it brings factors even to a build that leechs. Factors they will usually take, they will play it and it increases the difficulty of that map for them and they get rewarded with quant.

Damage mitigation everyone needs, and you need enough of it. Reflect mitigation you dont need because its such a niche case of it existing and you basically dont play it, ever, so its completely irrelevent to building characters in the game right now. Damage mitigation is essential to playing everything in the game so having damage mods and having an excess of mitigation to deal with them brings something to the game. You play those damage mods all day and they increase the danger of the encounters in those maps.


None of what you are saying is similar to reflect in the ways Im talking about reflect, theyre clearly different.

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vio wrote:

so, it's time to get rid of players trying to water down the game mechanics to a plain "who kills faster".

we're already too far down the road of damage output being the only relevant factor for a build.

explain how reflect map mod helps the game not be watered down to who kills faster and changes the dynamic of building characters so that its not all about damage output?

I dont see how reflect map mod makes any difference at all to these factors.

Are you telling me someone like mathil sits there and thinks oh theres reflect map mod in the game, I better get defences and less damage? Are you telling me the people following builds are avoiding mathils builds because of reflect?

I dont understand, I simply do not understand this sort of perspective. Back when we had reflect rares I can understand this view point, I cannot see how reflect map mod has any of the effects reflect rares had.






Honestly I think when u look at the ways to deal with reflect rares we basically see that reflect as a mechanic was a shit way to try and achieve these goals and I fully support GGG for removing them. I never asked for it, but when they did it and I really thought about it I fully agreed with it.


The whole thing of reflect to cap power creep is lazy and bullshit, its idiotic. Theres too many ways around it, even without direct reduced reflect taken. Totems, traps, chaos damage, theres too many ways to bypass it. The more of a factor you make it the more you just force people away from the builds it effects and on to the builds it doesnt. Why? What is healthy about that? nothing, and it doesnt do what its there for, capping power, it just pushes power play into a smaller set of viable builds. It achieves crushing build diversity, it doesnt achieve power capping.

Reflect is shit at its job, it doesnt achieve it, so using it as a crutch to balance your damage rather than actually limiting power levels through giving people less power is pathetic, lazy and ineffective. Calling it out, its bullshit and unworthy of good game devs.

Making defences matter? This idea vio brings up of water down the game mechanics to a plain "who kills faster"... I agree this is a massive problem in the game. But I make extremely defensive builds and I still wouldnt run reflect maps because the mitigation you get does not help.

I have phys damage jugs running around with 7500 life, 25k armour, 7 endurance, 14k evasion, 55% block, 7% life regen, defence pantheons, basalt flask, enfeeble, granite flask... and such a character is non crit physical with the sort of damage levels thats literally 1/10 of what mathil would have, people would mock the damage and say its too shit to even play. Those characters with all those defences and that complete lack of damage still cant play phys reflect, that mitigation will not allow them to survive it. They cant even run ELEMENTAL reflect, because having hatred aura on will kill them to ele reflect... No, reflect does NOT make you build more defence and less damage, it makes even extremely well defended characters who do low damage use a chaos orb.

IT doesnt promote balanced builds, and turning around and saying hey, we dont want ur dps to be the only factor so we have reflect, which is basically making you look at ur dps... lol. Come on ppl, see it for the bullshit it is.




What the game needs is monster encounters that matter, you should need mitigation to deal with monsters killing you, not for you killing yourself. Weve just given up at this stage hu? So pathetic is the game that we have given up on the idea of needing to build to fight monsters, and instead we are subbing in fighting our own damage as the only way to try and make us do something other than get even more damage? Pathetic, truly pathetic. I dont buy it, you wanna curb excessive player power? Then stop giving players more power and curb the power that already exists. You want players to care about defence? Make the monsters they fight hurt them and require defences to survive.

Reflect is not a worthy substitute to actually making a balanced, good game, putting in reflect does not get you off the hook for failing at these concepts and having a shit game. The moment you are saying we need reflect to stand in for proper game development its already fucked, its already a worthless piece of a shit game.



They were right to remove reflect rares, there is way more reason to remove reflect maps, and if we want a more challenging game then we need to be calling for that to be done in a way worthy of a good game.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

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Shazamarang wrote:

So, what you're implying is that you'd rather see maps take more mechanical skill than build preparation? That seems like an oxymoron, considering the point you're arguing for, that being removing reflect, is a step into reducing the amount of effort needed to play the game.

it really isnt.


it doesnt remove the effort needed to play the game at all, unless you consider using a chaos orb effort, in which case were just fundamentally opposed in how we see the potential of arpg games. I cant get on the wavelength of someone who not only considers that effort but also a good, healthy effort that brings something positive to the game.

Rolling past reflect isn't the only answer when it pops up, and the fact that you think it is shows that you're either too lazy to build diverse characters that can run either of the forms of reflect, too lazy to change a couple of pieces of gear so than you can run it, or you don't want to make this about difficulty and just want it removed so you can streamline the game.

No shit using a chaos orb isn't skilful, literally nobody said it ever was. The skill comes in building a character that isn't made of wet paper that can either deal with reflect naturally, or can adapt to do so. Obviously you remember both reflect rares and reflect auras, and if you do you should remember that it was actually super fucking easy to deal with if you saw them. And I'm not just talking from 4 years ago, I'm talking version 3.1.0, which was 1 year ago. Every single person who couldn't kill a reflect rare a year ago was the problem, not the mechanic, and they're the same people crying about map reflect.

Also just a later side-note; you don't need to lecture me about skill in arpgs. I've played plenty on pvp here before it became the shit-show it is now, I'm played d2 pvp, and I've played some korean arpgs with pvp such as Dragon Nest. Path of Exile is not a skill focused game, and will most likely never be one.

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Shazamarang wrote:

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

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Shazamarang wrote:

So, what you're implying is that you'd rather see maps take more mechanical skill than build preparation? That seems like an oxymoron, considering the point you're arguing for, that being removing reflect, is a step into reducing the amount of effort needed to play the game.

it really isnt.


it doesnt remove the effort needed to play the game at all, unless you consider using a chaos orb effort, in which case were just fundamentally opposed in how we see the potential of arpg games. I cant get on the wavelength of someone who not only considers that effort but also a good, healthy effort that brings something positive to the game.

The skill comes in building a character that isn't made of wet paper that can either deal with reflect naturally, or can adapt to do so. Obviously you remember both reflect rares and reflect auras, and if you do you should remember that it was actually super fucking easy to deal with if you saw them. And I'm not just talking from 4 years ago, I'm talking version 3.1.0, which was 1 year ago. Every single person who couldn't kill a reflect rare a year ago was the problem, not the mechanic, and they're the same people crying about map reflect.

Can you explain on this? Are you talking about ascendacies that totally negate reflect or do you mean build a character with enough leech and defenses to naturally counter reflect map?

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Nephalim wrote:

Can you explain on this? Are you talking about ascendacies that totally negate reflect or do you mean build a character with enough leech and defenses to naturally counter reflect map?

More on the side of ascendancies, but not limited to only them. When I need to run physical reflect, I use conversion gear to do full elemental. When I need to run elemental reflect, I either remove as much elemental damage as possible, or if I'm already a full elemental build I mitigate it through the pantheon and a Sibyl's. I also like to use Loreweave, I mean pretty much everyone does, which helps a bit.

I build both ways, but only ever change my setup because of reflect, whereas I'd almost always build to be naturally tanky.

This Thread is pure Gold..

People that are too incompetent spending 5 seconds to read the Map Mods before enter the Map want to change the Reflect System lol..

On top of that they want the old System back where the Monster itself have the Reflect Mods xD

I have a srs Question:Why do you think this change would help you avoid getting rekt when you killing yourself now in a stupid way like this?

Want to tell me that the system we have now is harder then the old?

I remember the Times where People needed to transform the normal Dmg types into chaos so they dont get 1 shottet from a Mob 2 Screens away.But sure,ask to bring this great feature back lol

Imagine there is a map mod that reads: "Players can not place mines or totems". How do you feel about that? Because that is how exactly how I feel when I encounter those reflect mods: Elemental self-cast/attack hit based build simply can not do those mods.

Damn, when I was playing cold snap vortex build, that focused ENTIRELY on the DoT, and still got rekt by reflect when casting cold snap into a pack of mobs.

snorkle, my disagreement with you on reflect basically boils down to "it's good to make people have to gamble on whether they can run a particular map unidentified or not".

Are there builds that can run every mod? Sure. Are there builds that can run every mod *easily*? Well, I've never seen "no leech" stack with "cannot regenerate life and mana" (the two combined would make me say "definitely not, it's impossible, because flask management is never 'easy'"), so maybe a non-VP pure phys slayer can do it, but otherwise, not really. I have a totem hierophant this league that gets slowed down by reflect and can flask through no regeneration but he doesn't enjoy doing either.

I think it's good that -max resist maps exist to tell rf juggs "hahah wait just a minute". I think it's good that reflect maps and no leech maps exist so the ridiculous hit-based DPS builds have a check on them and can't just pop every single map unid'd for the 30 quant bonus without even thinking.

To be honest, up until ascendancy came out, I actually felt about temp chains maps the way you feel about reflect (at least now, juggs can choose to not care and other people are still stuck with flasks, kaom's roots, or curse effect mitigation), but now I'm really happy with the map mod balance, especially since they added Cannot Leech.

The one change I wouldn't mind is for reflect to apply a damage over time effect with a rate capped at >1x your current leech cap, so that people could pop unid'd reflect maps and have time to TCP logout when they start taking their giant damage from the first pack.