So, its time to get rid of Damage Reflect mod on maps

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M1cash1 wrote:

This Thread is pure Gold..

People that are too incompetent spending 5 seconds to read the Map Mods before enter the Map want to change the Reflect System lol..

On top of that they want the old System back where the Monster itself have the Reflect Mods xD

I have a srs Question:Why do you think this change would help you avoid getting rekt when you killing yourself now in a stupid way like this?

Want to tell me that the system we have now is harder then the old?

I remember the Times where People needed to transform the normal Dmg types into chaos so they dont get 1 shottet from a Mob 2 Screens away.But sure,ask to bring this great feature back lol

You completely miss the point.

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Shazamarang wrote:

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

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Shazamarang wrote:

So, what you're implying is that you'd rather see maps take more mechanical skill than build preparation? That seems like an oxymoron, considering the point you're arguing for, that being removing reflect, is a step into reducing the amount of effort needed to play the game.

it really isnt.


it doesnt remove the effort needed to play the game at all, unless you consider using a chaos orb effort, in which case were just fundamentally opposed in how we see the potential of arpg games. I cant get on the wavelength of someone who not only considers that effort but also a good, healthy effort that brings something positive to the game.

Rolling past reflect isn't the only answer when it pops up, and the fact that you think it is shows that you're either too lazy to build diverse characters that can run either of the forms of reflect, too lazy to change a couple of pieces of gear so than you can run it, or you don't want to make this about difficulty and just want it removed so you can streamline the game.

No shit using a chaos orb isn't skilful, literally nobody said it ever was. The skill comes in building a character that isn't made of wet paper that can either deal with reflect naturally

I would bet I make characters with more defences than you do.

Its not about having characters that can deal with it, got many characters who dont care at all about either forms of reflect. The ones that cant dont care, at all, cause they just dont run those maps. I dont even chaos them most of the time, I put them aside and run them on a different character who doesnt care about the mod.

Theres no reason to make a character who doesnt care about reflect, and its nothing to do with being wet paper.

Theres characters who are not effected by reflect, those that can gear/pantheon/gem swap around it (which is a silly waste of time because you can loot a chaos orb in less time than it takes to switch shit around), and those who simply cant run reflect at all regardless of what u do about it. There is no rhyme or reason regarding which builds fall into which category and the end result is that none of them are effected by reflect map mods because the ones it effects dont run them.



This is the character Im currently in game playing maps with right this moment...





it has 16k es, 16k evasion, zealots with high regen, wicked ward, vile bastion, faster es recharge start stacked through the roof, over 400k chaos dot per sec damage. I dont give a shit about reflect, Ill run any map and just completely faceroll it. Its not about having paper characters, its not about wanting the game easier for myself, its not about dying to reflect maps and crying, its not about being lazy.

Its taking a step back, looking at the mechanic objectively and realising its nonsense and shouldnt be in the game, for all the reasons Ive mentioned in this thread and no one has made any argument to counter. Its nothing to do with me personally having trouble dealing with its existence at all, certainly not due to any kind of incompetence.

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Peterlerock wrote:

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M1cash1 wrote:

This Thread is pure Gold..

People that are too incompetent spending 5 seconds to read the Map Mods before enter the Map want to change the Reflect System lol..

On top of that they want the old System back where the Monster itself have the Reflect Mods xD

I have a srs Question:Why do you think this change would help you avoid getting rekt when you killing yourself now in a stupid way like this?

Want to tell me that the system we have now is harder then the old?

I remember the Times where People needed to transform the normal Dmg types into chaos so they dont get 1 shottet from a Mob 2 Screens away.But sure,ask to bring this great feature back lol

You completely miss the point.

yep, and from what I can see everyone wanting to keep it has missed the point tbh.

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codetaku wrote:

snorkle, my disagreement with you on reflect basically boils down to "it's good to make people have to gamble on whether they can run a particular map unidentified or not".

I can kind of understand ur thinking with this, and thats fair enough.

Personally my experience is that if I happen to run a build who cant deal with one of the reflect mods then I would simply never run an unid map on that character every under any circumstances. To me I find that a shame, I would never take the gamble, if reflect wasnt there I would take the gamble of the map potentially being horrific. As long as theres impossible in the pool, nope, it removes unid maps from existing essentially for those characters.

Its a difference of opinion but I respect your take on it.




I feel that a niche build its ok for a mod to be impossible. Ppl talk about no regen rf... sure, and thats like 1% of builds for whom that mod is impossible, the other 99% its either a complete non issue or its resulting in various stages of being harder but not impossible.

With reflect I think its almost reversed, the vast majority of builds cant run their given damages reflect, majority of phys builds cant run ele reflect even.

I think the rf case isnt ideal, but in such a complex game theres gonna be some situations like that where for the good of having a mod thats interesting for the majority of builds a few niche builds have to suffer a binary lockout.

I dont think its good for the majority of builds to suffer a lockout when the payoff to those who get through is simply free quant in almost all cases, with virtually no one finding themselves in the middle ground of what a map mod should achieve where you run it and it actually makes the map harder. Thats what a map mod should do, and ur probably looking at reflect working in that good, healthy way for like 1% of builds.

thats where my issue with it is.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

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codetaku wrote:

snorkle, my disagreement with you on reflect basically boils down to "it's good to make people have to gamble on whether they can run a particular map unidentified or not".

I can kind of understand ur thinking with this, and thats fair enough.

Personally my experience is that if I happen to run a build who cant deal with one of the reflect mods then I would simply never run an unid map on that character every under any circumstances. To me I find that a shame, I would never take the gamble, if reflect wasnt there I would take the gamble of the map potentially being horrific. As long as theres impossible in the pool, nope, it removes unid maps from existing essentially for those characters.

I run these maps if a challenge wants me to, I jump carefully into the first pack using only my movement skill to deal damage and then either skip the map or keep going.

It only takes the binary decision one step further.

snorkle, it's hard to argue with you cause you bring so many points. which are mostly valid and logical.

i think the intention of ggg is to force people to make multiple builds or sell maps they can't run.

nothing more.

reflect maps aren't a great barrier for builds if maps aren't account bound.

...

i have nothing against individual monsters challenging builds on top of map mods.

There is also a problem with numbers.

In the current state of the game, we are expected to dish out at least 100 times more damage per second than we have health. Plenty of builds reach 1000:1. Multiplied by the number of monsters in a pack, let's say 10, so add another 0 to the numbers above. So we are dealing 1000 to 10000 damage per health point per second.

At the same time, our defenses are limited to much smaller multipliers. You can maybe mitigate physical damage of double your health pool, elemental damage of five times your health pool, add some avoidance on top, but still... You cannot take damage to the dimensions of your own damage output anymore.

They already had to lower life leech numbers to 0.x because otherwise every single hit covers the entire health pool (and it still does, waiting for 0.005% life leech affixes).

But 18% reflects are still on the menu.

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Peterlerock wrote:

There is also a problem with numbers.

In the current state of the game, we are expected to dish out at least 100 times more damage per second than we have health. Plenty of builds reach 1000:1. Multiplied by the number of monsters in a pack, let's say 10, so add another 0 to the numbers above. So we are dealing 1000 to 10000 damage per health point per second.

At the same time, our defenses are limited to much smaller multipliers. You can maybe mitigate physical damage of double your health pool, elemental damage of five times your health pool, add some avoidance on top, but still... You cannot take damage to the dimensions of your own damage output anymore.

They already had to lower life leech numbers to 0.x because otherwise every single hit covers the entire health pool (and it still does, waiting for 0.005% life leech affixes).

But 18% reflects are still on the menu.

Yes even with 98% reflect mitigation one burst will kill most builds. It's all or nothing.

quit crying like a baby. I'm a noob and as long as I take it slower, I can complete reflect maps.

M1cash1 You have fully demonstrated the core of my thoughts expressed in this thread

People dont want to remove reflect mod from maps, but also they do not want to play it.

"dont get 1 shottet from a Mob 2 Screens away" . this is exactly the purpose of reflect, dont go glass cannon deleting everthing in front of you.

But what differentiates thorns from mod maps? Simple, in one you deal with one and only one enemy, the other, every single monsters reflect the damage, making the mechanic much more deadly and difficult to survive it.

Soulless80 I do not want to be skeptical or call you a liar (please do not take it to that side),but you can really survive the mod and manage to defeat the end game bosses or high regen enemies? if you do, congrats man.

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Santiagofera wrote:

Soulless80 I do not want to be skeptical or call you a liar (please do not take it to that side),but you can really survive the mod and manage to defeat the end game bosses or high regen enemies? if you do, congrats man.

Some skills allow the slow roll better than others.

Some, of course, just don't have to worry about reflect at all.


Elites having thorns would be a better solution because it could be matched to the expected survivability of players at a given tier.