So, its time to get rid of Damage Reflect mod on maps

"

Shazamarang wrote:

Yeah, I think they should get rid of reflect. Then after that, they should get rid of damage mods, and maybe curse mods. My 3,500 life character can't run maps without getting one-shot, so I think they should just remove the hard mods altogether.

dont be silly. Its not a hard mod, its either an impossible mod you reroll or its a mod that doesnt effect your character so its free quant. Theres nothing hard about it at all, for 99% of people, in 99% of cases, it has 0 effect in terms of game difficulty.

"

Santiagofera wrote:

Shazamarang I'm not saying to remove completely from the game, yes, it's a mechanic to prevent speedfarm from being overpower, but like I said by fixing or removing the mod on maps and making it a boss mechanic (a good suggestion of the Ratedetar) and more common in rare mobs would not it be more reasonable than the entire map reflecting?

Im saying it should be removed, for sure.

It doesnt effect speed farming, no one is a speed farmer who is forced to go slower because of some kind of effect reflect has on their play, unless by slower you mean more time spent standing at their stash rolling maps and looking at what mods they have.

It just has no real place in the game imo in its current state, neither reflect monsters or areas like maps. the way GGG has always tuned reflect in almost all situations either instantly kills you so you cant do it or it doesnt really effect you at all.

"

crystalwitch wrote:

It always surprises me how people are still complaining about damage reflection.

Then I remember how some people absolutely hate having to adjust to a situation.

Although it's possible some of those people are new and don't know the various options for mitigation.

Or, come to think of it, the ways a player can make themselves even weaker against reflected damage.
Nothing quite like an Abyssus-wearing berserker charging blindly ahead without looking at the map mods.

Theres a difference between complaining about reflect in the sense of a noob saying omg i keep dying to reflect omg plz nerf... and then extremely experienced players sitting back looking at the mechanic from a detached, objective point of view and saying actually, this mechanic is pretty retarded right? What does this really add to the game? Its nonsense and should just be removed.

The second of those is whats happening. Its not about adjusting, everyones adjusted to it, its in the game, its always been in the game, everyone is doing just fine with reflect map mod in the game and has been for the last 5 years. That doesnt mean it SHOULD be in the game.

"

Aim_Deep wrote:

c. you're chaos
d. you build around/mitigated it e.g. over-max res for elemental or high phys res for phys builds...

Point is it's there to be conquered not rolled around which most do. It's just another challenge game presents and I think it's fun.

I've built several toons reflect immune. Both elemental and phys.

Hell my first toon was reflect immune...fox's arcer with 87% lightning res.

personally I dont agree. Sure the fox arcer reflect immune, but ur talking what? 4 years ago? When fox made his mom arcer it was the highest damage arcer I had seen up to that point, empower has just been added, the vaal orb... he had 20k dps.

You cant stack max res as high now, and those same arc builds dont have 20k dps, they have somewhere between 200k and 1 million dps.

I generally make builds with higher defence values than anyone I know or see outside of extreme 20k es tanks. I make builds with lower damage and higher defences than any hardcore streamer I see or have seen ever in 5 years, and I wouldnt even run an ele reflect map with a physical build, cause my hatred aura alone will kill me. I could turn it off... or just chaos the map? Its easier to just click once and its something else, ok we will run that instead.

Theres no point, theres no incentive, and there shouldnt be because if we were highly incentive to run reflect maps it would be the death of self anything regarding phys or ele in favour of chaos, totem and trap builds.


My experience is that if you used a lvl1 skill gem on a skill like arc now, made a decent all purpose build with solid mapping defences, youd have like 100 dps or whatever and it would be awful. Now add higher skill gem, more supports, keep buffing up the damage of ur skill, I think reflect would become so sketchy youd stop running reflect maps at a point when ur damage was still too shit to be effective against decent endgame content.

Yeah, you could invite the whole circus, make sure your resists etc can deal with ring swaps and get the stupid anti reflect rings, the pantheon, go for the nodes on the tree, bastardise ur entire setup and spend a stupid amount of time going through these silly swaps for every map with reflect... for what? Chaos the map once, in the time it took to swap all that gear and fanny around like an idiot you could have looted 2 chaos running a non reflect map. Complete waste of time.

Or you go arc traps instead and do 1 million damage for free and reflect stops existing. Why would the game want players to be given that choice? You wanna do 50k dps self cast arc and struggle with reflect after a huge effort in gear swaps and passive investment or u wanna just put it on a trap and do a million dps while forgetting reflect even exists?






I dont think its fun, I dont think its hard, I dont think theres any actual worthy challenge there to be had. Just a binary mechanic: Do you die to reflect? Yes/No. If yes reroll map or do X which makes the yes become a No. If No then run the map and it doesnt effect you. There we go, thats what reflect adds to the game... outside of randomly instakilling some guy on a youtube clip who accidentally put in a map he didnt realise was reflect.. HAHAH, HAHAHA YOU DIED, HAHAHAHAHAHA...


I think its pathetic tbh, outdated mechanic.


If running a reflect map meant that when I go in and hit a pack with aoe I lose say 5%-10% of my life and I have to play around that, be tactical, back off sometimes, sure, sounds fun. But imo it hasnt been that since like 2013 when we had 6k dps in endgame fully geared, and it cant be that now because one guy has 30k dps and the next guy has 3 million, theyve fucked up the scaling of their game too much to be able to balance any sort of mechanic like this. Its hit a pack and instantly die, even though my dps is 1/20 of what mathil has using the same skill.

Thats why we all just 1 shot the entire screen, because if they tried to really fix that problem ud have 25% of the player base unable to kill trash mobs at a point when the other 75% are still 1 shotting the whole screen including the boss. The dps gap thanks to too many sources of significant damage multipliers has left the game beyond repair.

lol oh boy, do you really want to dumb down the game more? there's a reason for a chaos sink...just reroll your maps.

"

Molochmane wrote:

lol oh boy, do you really want to dumb down the game more? there's a reason for a chaos sink...just reroll your maps.

And that is not dumb?

All the reflect mod does is to make me pay about 100 chaos orbs per league for rerolling, unless I am immune to it (which I never gear for, but I take it if it is for free like on a slayer).

Sure I can pay these 100 chaos orbs.
But why should I have to?
What does it really add to my gameplay?

My reply earlier was sarcastic, since I don't think everyone picked up on that. I don't actually think damage mods should be removed, no shit, and they are entirely different to reflect mods.

However, I still don't think reflect needs to be removed as a map mod, aside from maybe reducing the frequency it appears on 8 mod maps or removing it from unidentified maps. Reflect as a rare mod should absolutely still be a mod, and I'm still pissed off the community managed to cry hard enough for them to remove it. Fuck, I'd be happy with reflect auras back in the game. Same for volatiles, but that's a different argument altogether.

My problem with removing reflect isn't because I think reflect has a good enough justification to exist in the game. If it wasn't already a thing, I probably wouldn't add it to the game. My problem is removing difficulty from the game to appease the people who don't want to play around it. They removed volitiles, they removed reflect as a mod on rare monsters, if they remove reflect from maps then the next thing to go will probably be curses, no regen or the experience penalty. Fuck, I'm surprised people are bringing up reflect before no leech, which is far more of a brick than reflect is. At least you can play around reflect.

And yes, reflect is 100% an aspect of difficulty. Reflect either makes you invest currency into not running it, in this case rolling past it, or it makes you adapt your build so that you can run it, in most cases forcing you to play less efficiently. Being forced to play or do something inefficient is the very definition of difficulty in this context.

Please do not get rid of reflect, i want to buy cheap corrupted maps.

If you can't do reflect, why not just reroll the map to something manageable for your 500 Billion dps build?
If map is vaaled, just sell it to people and buy another.
If map is vaaled and you're SSF, you picked the mode, not me.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

dont be silly. Its not a hard mod, its either an impossible mod you reroll or its a mod that doesnt effect your character so its free quant. Theres nothing hard about it at all, for 99% of people, in 99% of cases, it has 0 effect in terms of game difficulty.

...

For me it's a mod for which I switch to Yugul's pantheon, proceed cautiously a bit to see how much damage I'm taking, and then decide whether or not to swap out one of my rings for Sibyl's Lament.

I got caught out one time on a strongbox as a Whispering Ice build because I'd overestimated my leech but I recognised the death as my fault and swapped in a Sibyl's Lament ring and cleared the rest of the map easily enough.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

Theres a difference between complaining about reflect in the sense of a noob saying omg i keep dying to reflect omg plz nerf... and then extremely experienced players sitting back looking at the mechanic from a detached, objective point of view and saying actually, this mechanic is pretty retarded right?

Funnily enough, as an extremely experienced player I sit back and look at damage reflection objectively and say, actually, do we really need to be dealing all of this damage? We're deleting bosses in a matter of seconds anyway.

"

Peterlerock wrote:

"

Molochmane wrote:

lol oh boy, do you really want to dumb down the game more? there's a reason for a chaos sink...just reroll your maps.

And that is not dumb?

All the reflect mod does is to make me pay about 100 chaos orbs per league for rerolling, unless I am immune to it (which I never gear for, but I take it if it is for free like on a slayer).

Sure I can pay these 100 chaos orbs.
But why should I have to?
What does it really add to my gameplay?

How's any different rerolling a rippy map with more monster damage mods, max resist reduction, increased AOE, etc? Either take a risk to get ripped or...just reroll a map or avoid the map entirely.

it's a good chaos sink, why would you remove it ?

Shazamarang, Molochmane, Malone

be sincere, you guys think it fair that this mod can only be played for limited builds like totems, mines, traps, srs and chaos without penalty? So, what's the point in removing the Blood magic mod? and what prevents ggg to make mods for only certain selections builds like ,Ancestral bond mod or CI mod or Vaal pact mod or elemental/physical/chaos do not damage mod etc? If they had these mods, reflect it would be a reasonable justification at least.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

why does it exist? What is it bringing to the table? What good comes of it? What bad comes of it? We dont need it imo, its just mod bloat for the sake of it, occasionally kills someone imo unfairly when they didnt realise it was reflect, just forces rerolls or is free quantity rather than offering a challenge in 99% of cases.


Its not about how do you deal with this reflect map in front of you right now, its the bigger question of should reflect maps be in the game for players to deal with? The game needs people looking past their own immediate situation and interests to the wider picture of the games state.

This is exactly why Reflect SHOULD exist. If it doesn't, high clearspeed builds will be the only way to go, because there will be no restrain to them. Reflective makes sure that, from time to time, those build have to, either reroll, or take baby steps in the map.

I'm playing a pure phys jugg, and i barely care about phys reflect, but only because my build is slow and clunky. If reflect doesn't exist, i would literally have no benefit whatsoever in going the way i go.

Greedy builds need checks, if punishing, even better.