I really hate lab

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Fruz wrote:

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sofocle10000 wrote:

Not saying that others have to adjust their view, that is up to them, but I'm just stating the facts.

Yes you are, and no you are not.

This is literally what you said :

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sofocle1000 wrote:

Those that tout "hardcore game" about PoE have to adjust their point of view

I used to play Diablo1 a bit, PoE has sooo much more depth it's not even open for discussion at this point.
PoE just takes much more time to learn and understand, and it requires a much bigger amount of knowledge to reach the final "levels".

And yes, the fact that you have to look for everything yourself ( in game or not ) increase the difficulty, a lot compared to having everything handled on a silver plate.
You like it or not, that's a part of it and a part of what can be considered "hardcore", you need to invest much more time / resources to reach your ends.

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sofocle1000 wrote:

Although many things were added since the game was released in an alpha state, you can build a character that experiences the content up to tier 15 maps at least without too much difficulty, by just adapting. You have to pay attention if you're lacking the knowledge from the start, but believe me, just by hoarding stuff and having a common sense when adding skill points, you'll get there. It will be no easy game mode, if you're not playing VP + ES, but you could do that.

You are not even trying to get a beginner's point of view at all, it's so obvious and you are o biased by the fact that you know the game already.
You can try harder.

Having a death penalty from the start ? You mean a death penalty when getting a level takes 5 minutes ? Oo
Like what exactly ?
And no, people are QQing about the death penalty because their characters are not built properly enough to survive the content, or they are playing too recklessly, not because there is no deaht penalty at level 10.


I will just ignore the rest of your post @"You can get to the end game fights", since you have reached level 97 ... but not beaten the Eater of soul, like ever.
You have not done it yourself with hundreds of hours ( if not thousands ) invested into the game, but you think you can just say "it's not hardcore, you can do everything in there, it's not even difficult !"
"without too much difficulty"
"by just adapting"
"you'll get there"
/rofl

Instead of "have", would have been better to use "should", right? My bad.

That time/resource investment to understand the game is considered "hardcore", wasn't questioned for a second, as PoE gets the grind truly "hardcore".

Having a reworked death penalty that applies to the Normal playthrough would be better. Let's go a wild guess and think about the horror of losing a level/blocking a skill point allocation due to dying to make people understand the "hardcoreness" of having to stay alive even through the first 30-40 levels. That would feel a lot more "hardcore" don't you think?

I'm only 96, and I don't like endgame fights too much, remember that great EXP gain/danger reward ratio that we were talking about - you haven't talked about me killing Atziri, or Uber (as not all of us are trading for our items), but Eater of Souls is such a concern right? - and I slowly progress towards that achievement, I'm at 102 completion on the Atlas, I'll get there.

And I say it's not that difficult if you pursue that goal. Even if you take your own time, you will still get there...

PS: Fun fact regarding beginners, all my friends that played ARPG's before weren't overwhelmed by PoE depth, and even the 2 newbies that started by playing PoE haven't experienced major difficulties in understanding how the game works. Most of them are still playing. But PoE has to feel worth it for you to become invested, and ARPG's although popular, might not suit everyone taste, especially since the greatest rewards come when you are sufficiently invested in these sort of games...

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Fruz wrote:

See ? It's getting about splitting hairs now.
PoE naturally attracts people that are looking for at least a somewhat hardcore experience.
Such depths kinda goes with a hardcore experience since the amount of knowledge and room for mistake is really big.

So I would say that people that do not want anything like a hardcore experience are likely not playing PoE to start with.

This is why "hardcore" here is a purely subjective term that everybody can manipulate however they want.

PoE is already providing somewhat of a hardcore experience.
Lab enchances that feeling.
I don't see a problem here.

"hardcore" does not necessarily refer to the technical league type.

The problem with your statement here is that IS what Chris was referring to. The league type, not your nebulous personal definition. I've seen you conflate the two in the past, which makes your arguments incoherent, because people may be talking about one thing and you jump in talking about something different.

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gibbousmoon wrote:

[...]

Before jumping in, trying to be condescending, you should probably have checked from the start of the argument :

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torturo wrote:

The hardcore-ness of PoE is an outdated propaganda. Taking into account the game evolution, PoE stopped being hardcore since the end of 2013.

(This was the original statement that I was referring too.)

That would have saved you that embarrassing post.

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sofocle10000 wrote:

Having a reworked death penalty that applies to the Normal playthrough would be better. Let's go a wild guess and think about the horror of losing a level/blocking a skill point allocation due to dying to make people understand the "hardcoreness" of having to stay alive even through the first 30-40 levels. That would feel a lot more "hardcore" don't you think?

Of course it would, but that would be ridiculously inconsistent with what's coming after, and it would not keep people from QQing after either.
It's been a long time, but if I recall correctly, the merc penaly used to be 15%, the cruel one 10% .... and I'm not sure but there used to be a 5% one in normal, or ?

And eater of soul is a farther goal than Atziri ( no idea if you've killed uber or not, there is no achievement for this one, is it ? ), this is why I mentioned it.

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sofocle10000 wrote:

And I say it's not that difficult if you pursue that goal. Even if you take your own time, you will still get there...

So it is not difficult if you get to a point where you have enough knowledge to reach the highest tier, spend hundred and hundred of hours and then access the content than maybe less than 1% of the population ever sees ?
That's splitting hairs to me, those are components of difficulty.

As an example, have you ever played FFX ?
I think that all FFX players would agree that beating Der Richter is a pretty hardcore thing, it's not exactly easy to get there and to do it.
What does it need ? Knowledge and time, essentially.

That is part of the skillset there, and it is the same in Path of Exile.
Difficulty is not only real reactions, reflexes and real-time judgement, it just isn't.

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Fruz wrote:

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

[...]

Before jumping in, trying to be condescending, you should probably have checked from the start of the argument :

"

torturo wrote:

The hardcore-ness of PoE is an outdated propaganda. Taking into account the game evolution, PoE stopped being hardcore since the end of 2013.

(This was the original statement that I was referring too.)

That would have saved you that embarrassing post.

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

Having a reworked death penalty that applies to the Normal playthrough would be better. Let's go a wild guess and think about the horror of losing a level/blocking a skill point allocation due to dying to make people understand the "hardcoreness" of having to stay alive even through the first 30-40 levels. That would feel a lot more "hardcore" don't you think?

Of course it would, but that would be ridiculously inconsistent with what's coming after, and it would not keep people from QQing after either.
It's been a long time, but if I recall correctly, the merc penaly used to be 15%, the cruel one 10% .... and I'm not sure but there used to be a 5% one in normal, or ?

And eater of soul is a farther goal than Atziri ( no idea if you've killed uber or not, there is no achievement for this one, is it ? ), this is why I mentioned it.

"

sofocle10000 wrote:

And I say it's not that difficult if you pursue that goal. Even if you take your own time, you will still get there...

So it is not difficult if you get to a point where you have enough knowledge to reach the highest tier, spend hundred and hundred of hours and then access the content than maybe less than 1% of the population ever sees ?
That's splitting hairs to me, those are components of difficulty.

As an example, have you ever played FFX ?
I think that all FFX players would agree that beating Der Richter is a pretty hardcore thing, it's not exactly easy to get there and to do it.
What does it need ? Knowledge and time, essentially.

That is part of the skillset there, and it is the same in Path of Exile.
Difficulty is not only real reactions, reflexes and real-time judgement, it just isn't.

Well, Torturo was right and made an completely accurate statement from my point of view.

Yes, there used to be a 5% death penalty on Normal, up to 15% on merciless, but it would have been better to at least have those values reversed, so even on Normal you would have still payed attention to the EXP bar.

The proposed solution would have been a small part of a larger rework, that encompassed the lack of end game focused incentive versus the higher end from an EXP point of view. And if the same system applied for all the 1-100 levels, there wouldn't have been a problem.

Yes, I played some FFX. While you're of course right, FFX lacked certain cheats opposed to PoE - instant log out, zerging, paying carries - so even if it relied on knowledge, time and skill, was more closer to have difficulty as only real reactions, reflexes and real-time judgement as defining factors of "hardcoreness".

It's not wrong to have other factors too - like time and knowledge - as defining "hardcore", but for the moment, PoE involves too little skillplay to have a "hardcore" feeling - and this is the only game where you could get killed by obscene RNG no matter your skillplay, and that won't ever feel right...

Too much talking

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sofocle10000 wrote:

Well, Torturo was right and made an completely accurate statement from my point of view.

Yes, there used to be a 5% death penalty on Normal, up to 15% on merciless, but it would have been better to at least have those values reversed, so even on Normal you would have still payed attention to the EXP bar.

The proposed solution would have been a small part of a larger rework, that encompassed the lack of end game focused incentive versus the higher end from an EXP point of view. And if the same system applied for all the 1-100 levels, there wouldn't have been a problem.

Yes, I played some FFX. While you're of course right, FFX lacked certain cheats opposed to PoE - instant log out, zerging, paying carries - so even if it relied on knowledge, time and skill, was more closer to have difficulty as only real reactions, reflexes and real-time judgement as defining factors of "hardcoreness".

It's not wrong to have other factors too - like time and knowledge - as defining "hardcore", but for the moment, PoE involves too little skillplay to have a "hardcore" feeling - and this is the only game where you could get killed by obscene RNG no matter your skillplay, and that won't ever feel right...

I agreed with Torturo too, the game has been casualized, but part of that feeling is also definitely because players have became way better at it ( only part, it has been casualized ).

Then why not having the exact same penalty all the way ? That would be more consistent, the penalty would naturally increase with the levels.
But I guess GGG does not want to frustrate new players too much anymore, which ( my guess ) is why they remove it completely in normal.

The "cheats" that you are talking about are what I was refering to when I said that you were salty.
Those are actual ingame design elements ( not a fan of carries either tbh, but I do understand why instant logout is there and I don't mind it. I also understand that it's likely too late for GGG to change it ).
Zerging is just the power creep going out of control .... I would love seeing the game slowed down, but .... I'm not holding my breath.

I consider "hardcorness" as the whole package : what the game has to offer, pushed very far.

I'm not going to assert that there aren't other game with heavy RNG, there probably are and I don't know them then.
I also consider "skill" as the whole package that PoE has to offer.

But the game definitely isn't forgiving and easy to approach, even now, and that can be seen as "hardcore".
A good player that manages his maps, characters and everything better will be more efficient, faster and will reach higher level and gearing opportunities before others, and it will be more difficult to beat such a player.
It all requires skill.

"

Yes, there used to be a 5% death penalty on Normal, up to 15% on merciless, but it would have been better to at least have those values reversed, so even on Normal you would have still payed attention to the EXP bar.

Not that I can remember. I think it was 0.7 something that introduced a 5% penalty in Cruel and 10% in Ruthless. It was just the 15% merciless that was reduced to 10% later on, but I cannot remember a time that normal had a death penalty (outside cutthroat).

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I think that all FFX players would agree that beating Der Richter is a pretty hardcore thing, it's not exactly easy to get there and to do it.
What does it need ? Knowledge and time, essentially.

Well thing is... scratch knowledge and at time. Even though FF is pretty westernized you can still outgrind even the hardest bosses, if you take those enemies on with best gear and fully maxed stats they aren't too hard, of course even trivial if you know some of the tricks to beat them.

Path of Exile rewards knowledge a lot better because some situations need to be assessed very quickly and having knowledge you can rely on to make the right decision is crucial. It is not a fast paced game that needs incredible reactions but knowing which dangers await you and how to react to them is a crucial aspect.

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Emphasy wrote:

Well thing is... scratch knowledge and at time. Even though FF is pretty westernized you can still outgrind even the hardest bosses, if you take those enemies on with best gear and fully maxed stats they aren't too hard, of course even trivial if you know some of the tricks to beat them.

Path of Exile rewards knowledge a lot better because some situations need to be assessed very quickly and having knowledge you can rely on to make the right decision is crucial. It is not a fast paced game that needs incredible reactions but knowing which dangers await you and how to react to them is a crucial aspect.

No, just no, you just cannot outgrind Der Richer, he was made so that the best gear possible could not outgrind him.
Even if you got the best stuff in the whole game and maxed out character, it takes like what .... ~10 mins to beat him or so ? (it's been a while, not sure anymore how long, even if you somewhat cheeze him with Wakka's overdrive). One miss in the pattern and he sends you directly back to the save sphere.
You just cannot.

In PoE you can outgrind the bosses more I guess (hello ES+VP+heaps of dmgs), but the point overall still stands.
And yes, there is indeed more knowledge to be acquired in PoE, and for the latest levels, you need it if you want to be somewhat safe.
That is no small thing that everyone acquires in couple of hours.

A few facts about me before I make a statement about my opinion on the lab.

1) I always play a slow moving tank character.
2) I always play hardcore (I play better with the tension. Somehow I manage to die in the first area when I play softcore)
3) I have chronic tendonitis (so it is hard to do fine coordinated moves with my hands). Yah I'm stupid, but addicted.

My first experiences of the lab were hell. I lost at least two hardcore characters on the first lab before resorting to running the trails many many times to figure out how the traps work and how they are timed.

Lessons I learned from those repeat trails
1) If you are doing it fast, you are planning to die.
2) If you are trying to tank it, you are planning to die.
3) If you do it without thinking, you are planning to die.

Eventually I got to the point where I found the lab as an interesting challenge game when I was tired of normal game-play.

I noticed however that my game-play against bosses improved. I started paying attention to types of attacks enemies used and how I should respond to them. I started paying attention to more details instead of just the enemy at the end of my mallet.

Unless you are a very skilled gamer and don't need the help, I feel the lab is a good teaching tool. I understand if you are only into speed runs and are already an uper-level gamer you might find it annoying just because it slows you down. For us who are not as good as you slowing us down to think and consider our actions instead of just holding down the mouse button to attack is probably a good thing.

Hence I find the Lab incredibly difficult but I find it rewarding.

This is contrasted with mechanics like
a) Herald's of the Obelisk
b) Volatile Flame/Ice/Storm Blood
Which do nothing except broadside you and kill you. If they had visual cues as to what type of nemesis/bloodline mod they were, I'd probably support them.

i wonder what kind of shit builds you are all guys playing. that should be atrocious monstruosities with half of the tree wasted.