Let's talk about Dual Wielding...

@Pacman

Yeah, I have another base I was working on with 33% WED that I might finish one day. I just got lucky with a yolo on this one and decided to finish it up.

@Gilrad

Glad to see that the buff helped your build, but the point of this thread is that, believe it or not, there are some people that like to dual wield weapons OTHER than physical. Like wands, or elemental weapons. I'd love to DW uniques like Dyadus, Hyaon's Fury, Rebuke of the Vaal. And while there is nothing stopping me from doing it, there sure as hell isn't much incentive.

I think the problem is a lot of people are assuming that when the devs state the goal of the DW change is to encourage a wider variety of dual wielding builds, they automatically assume these changes ought to apply to their elemental dual strike build.

The fact of the matter is, these change accomplished their goal (making it so the vast majority of the dual wielders aren't using Dual Strike) rather nicely, and it seems like a lot of the antagonism is more about bitterness over GGG not addressing the issues elemental builds are having.

I'd say the devs either think elemental-based dual wielding is at a good place and doesn't need to be buffed, or they are planning on approaching the problem from a different directions (like say, changing the baseline for resists or something like that).

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gilrad wrote:

I think the problem is a lot of people are assuming that when the devs state the goal of the DW change is to encourage a wider variety of dual wielding builds, they automatically assume these changes ought to apply to their elemental dual strike build.

The fact of the matter is, these change accomplished their goal (making it so the vast majority of the dual wielders aren't using Dual Strike) rather nicely, and it seems like a lot of the antagonism is more about bitterness over GGG not addressing the issues elemental builds are having.

I'd say the devs either think elemental-based dual wielding is at a good place and doesn't need to be buffed, or they are planning on approaching the problem from a different directions (like say, changing the baseline for resists or something like that).

There are Dual Strike elemental builds? Never seen.

The goal was missed, wasn't it? The wider variety stayed on the physical note, if not even reduced to more physical DW builds.
And Dual Strike is still #1 damage output, at least from my tests. But what are other skills to use as a dual wielder? Only Cleave uses both weapons, and it sucks so much, not worth mentioning.
Using skills that use only main hand is ridiculous, and still, only physical part got buffed with brute force.

What other skills are being used (more) while DW since and because of the buff?

I don't think anyone thinks that elemental DW builds are in a good position, at least anyone with a grain of intelligence.
I'd say it's either a very low priority or, like you've said, change in the resistances or something else.

Again I'd say that the main issue lies in the skills for DW, there are 2, one being utter shit.

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gilrad wrote:

I think the problem is a lot of people are assuming that when the devs state the goal of the DW change is to encourage a wider variety of dual wielding builds, they automatically assume these changes ought to apply to their elemental dual strike build.

The fact of the matter is, these change accomplished their goal (making it so the vast majority of the dual wielders aren't using Dual Strike) rather nicely, and it seems like a lot of the antagonism is more about bitterness over GGG not addressing the issues elemental builds are having.

I'd say the devs either think elemental-based dual wielding is at a good place and doesn't need to be buffed, or they are planning on approaching the problem from a different directions (like say, changing the baseline for resists or something like that).

... and the entire categories of Dual-Wield Wanders and Dual-Wield Casters.
... and the power of Dual Strike compared to other single target options.

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tinko92 wrote:

Again I'd say that the main issue lies in the skills for DW, there are 2, one being utter shit.

You keep forgetting that Reave is a dedicated Dualwield Skill.

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Peterlerock wrote:

You keep forgetting that Reave is a dedicated Dualwield Skill.

Spoiler

I knew I should've wrote "don't even mention Reave", I was very close to, but gave up in the end.

Whenever I read that by GGG, a disappointing smile comes to my face, and after that a huge facepalm.

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Mark_GGG wrote:

Reave is supposed to be for dual wield (not exclusively, but primarily). It was designed around being best when you have the multiplicative attack bonus that dual wield provides.

You sure about that? In my opinion, any Attack that alternates hands, or only uses the Main-Hand, is NOT meant for Dual-Wield. Since you are, effectively, only using ONE Weapon at a time...

And as such, the 2nd Weapon just becomes a source for Stats. Like Last Resort, or Soul Taker (to not need Mana Cost.)
Other than for those kinds of gimmicks, using a Shield is way better for Skills like Reave or Double Strike..

Also, Reave is basically a better version of Cleave. Maybe Cleave needs to be looked at to incentivize its use.

I would just remove Dual Strike.

Instead give Dualwielding a built-in multistrike.
Something like: "attacks quickly with both weapons (at the mana cost of one usage instead of two), 80-100% more attack speed, 20-30% less damage".
And combined with this, make each and every melee skill (and power siphon/spectral throw/barrage(?)) alternate weapons while dualwielding.

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Reasons:
1. Whatever you do to buff up Dualwielding in general, the only skill that will seriously profit is the one that uses both weapons at the same time. So if dualwielding is buffed, this one has to go.
2. Pure Off-hand weapons (only to get cheesy benefits) wouldn't make as much sense anymore. I consider this a good thing.

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Dual wielding casters: obviously do it for the stats/damage of a second wand. See no reason to give them any further advantages (in terms of casting).

Dual wielding wand shooters: does such a thing even exist? Whatever: they would also benefit from the above.

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Peterlerock wrote:

Pure Off-hand weapons (only to get cheesy benefits) wouldn't make as much sense anymore. I consider this a good thing.

I don't. I think we need more of those Weapons, and more support for them..
They are fun. (ie. Last Resort.)

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Sheriff_K wrote:

I don't. I think we need more of those Weapons, and more support for them..
They are fun. (ie. Last Resort.)

A matter of taste.

I find it ridiculous having 2 swords in hand and attacking with only 1. I just imagine it in my head and it pisses me off instantly.

Right now the main purpose of dual wielding is to grab stats from an off-hand weapon and use a non-DW skill, that's how much the whole dual wielding situation is fucked up.