Let's talk about Dual Wielding...

So now that it's been a while since the "buff", and most of the initial rash of QQ threads have been buried, let's try to have a civil, consolidated discussion on the state of Dual Wielding (DW).

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First off, DW does the following:

Grants 10% More Attack Speed
Grants 20% More Attack Physical damage
Grants 15% Block Chance

Most skills will alternate weapons, while Cleave and Dual Strike being the only 2 exceptions (simultaneous attacks).

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So here's my thoughts on the current state of this mechanic.

As I look at the skill tree, I notice a couple things right off the bat. There is a total of 42% of block chance on the tree for DW if you take every node, for a grand total of 57% (15%+42%). So you can't even cap block without wearing a BoR and a corrupted item or Anvil. And it will cost you 62 points to grab every node, using the MOST EFFICIENT paths available.

Another interesting thing on the tree, is that there are zero nodes that will boost elemental damage or increase cast speed / spell damage while DW. Physical damage nodes abound, and the recent "buff" to DW also added a 20% physical damage multiplier.

I particularly find it curious that the DW bonus of 10% more attack speed doesn't also apply to cast speed. If you look at several support gems (culling strike, faster projectiles, LMP/GMP), the quality bonus applies to attack and cast speed. I know you can't directly compare skill gems to skill nodes (apples to oranges), but would 10% more cast speed be broken?

By looking at the tree and the bonuses from the mechanic, I guess it's safe to assume that DW is only advantageous for physical damage characters at this time. If you are a DW spellcaster, all you benefit from is the 15% block chance. If you are a DW elemental attacker, it's slightly better because you benefit from the attack speed bonus and the block chance, but the physical damage bonus doesn't mean too much.

This really kills build diversity IMO. When I picture a dual wield character in my head, I imagine a swift, agile character. Someone who has decided to forgo the heavy defenses of a shield to substantially increase their damage output and mobility on the battlefield. I agree with the Devs decision on the low block chance of DW mechanics. Blocking is very powerful, and it shouldn't be easy to cap. Even shield users must make a heavy investment in nodes to reach the cap. But DW users can't even begin to approach the cap with the current offering of nodes, regardless of how many points we spend due to the scarcity of them.

My suggestions on how I would "buff" DW mechanics:

1. 10% more attack/cast speed (apply buff to include cast speed)
2. 20% more attack damage (apply buff to include elemental dmg)
3. 15% movespeed and 5% chance to dodge
4. Buff or Add DW block nodes to the tree, so that the total offering goes from 42% to 50%

Thanks for taking the time to read the wall 'o text, looking forward to hear what you guys think about DW mechanics and if/how they should be changed.

Movement speed does seem logical.
The physical 20% buff... Well, elemental Cleave was once a very powerful skill, which might came alive once again if they buffed the elemental damage as well, and they obviously don't want that.


But I believe the core issue of DW lies in the skills.
Why Cyclone isn't adjusted in DW to do damage with both weapons and not just one is one of the issues.
Cleave sucks when you have Dual Strike available (and no other DW skill).

We need more skills that use both weapons, it's silly to dual wield and only attack with a main hand, just try that by holding 2 kitchen knives in RL.
It currently has some sort of meaning only in some cases, like having a Soul Taker in off hand, or some other unique weapon like Essentia Sanguis or Ungil's, and that sucks.

I think DW also gives a bonus to crit chance.

Anyway that was an interesting read,but honestly,the best way to deal with it for me personally,is to give penalties,instead of bonuses for dual weilding,but make ALL skills attack at the same time rather than alternating weapons.Of course it does need heavy balalncing towards penalties,but for that makes more sense than anything else.Also make dual strike hit stronger than any other attack,but to be strictly single target.

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Poutsos wrote:

I think DW also gives a bonus to crit chance.

Nope


@OP: interesting points, however I disagree about adding cast speed to DW.

If someone uses attacks, dual wielding adds physical damage and attack speed because each attack can only come from 1 weapon at a time (aside from cleave and dual strike, which are already balanced appropriately).

If someone uses spells, both equipped wands apply their spell damage and cast speed to the spell simultaniously. Those two mods on wands are global already, hence there is no need to augment cast speed or spell damage on DW.

wand:
90% spell damage
18% cast speed

DW wands:
180% spell damage
36% cast speed


Dagger:
100 average damage
1.5 attk speed


DW daggers:
120 average damage
1.65 attk speed


Arguably, the DW wands benefit a LOT more already from DW'ing than daggers do so attacks are what needs the boost

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demivion wrote:

@OP: interesting points, however I disagree about adding cast speed to DW.

If someone uses attacks, dual wielding adds physical damage and attack speed because each attack can only come from 1 weapon at a time (aside from cleave and dual strike, which are already balanced appropriately).

If someone uses spells, both equipped wands apply their spell damage and cast speed to the spell simultaniously. Those two mods on wands are global already, hence there is no need to augment cast speed or spell damage on DW.

wand:
90% spell damage
18% cast speed

DW wands:
180% spell damage
36% cast speed


Dagger:
100 average damage
1.5 attk speed


DW daggers:
120 average damage
1.65 attk speed


Arguably, the DW wands benefit a LOT more already from DW'ing than daggers do so attacks are what needs the boost

Demivion,

good points on DW wands, I guess I didn't account for the fact that spell damage and cast speed are global, so obviously the combined effect of both wands are gained 'per cast'.

But when you take into consideration that it's possible for a caster shield can roll with 80+ spell damage and 100+ spell crit (along with 500+ ES and res), there is no reason to dual wield wands unless you just really need another 18% increased cast speed from a 2nd wand.

The more I think about it, I really wish they would add another defensive option to DW. DW itself is obviously an evasion/dexterity based mechanic given the placement of most of the nodes in the tree. A buff to dodge or evade would be nice, and a movement speed buff seems to me like a no brainer.

I agree with your assessment for the most part.

Leave block for the shield users.
Leave huge damage for the 2h users.

DW should be somewhere in between, with something more unique about it than just being a mathematical average between max-0 block and 2h-1h damage.

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I don't think DW's block rate is worth buffing. It's in a good spot, being able to get 30-40% block without too much investment, and only being able to get max block with lots of investment (including BoR and/or Ungwil's).

Defensively, it may need more to keep up with the sheer defensive power of a shield (with +life and the rest). To be fair, 2h has an even bigger defensive problem. On one hand, it would be simpler to just make shields worse and drop enemy damage. On the other, just embrace the power creep and give DW and 2h unique defensive boosts that keep up with the lost shield slot. Dodge definitely comes to mind for DW.

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I'm a bit confused as to why GGG went with %more physical (not even elemental) damage to "fix" the offensive DW problems. They could have kept the aspd flavor by increasing the 10% more aspd to 20-30% more aspd. This would add the same amount of final damage, but would favor elemental attacking (which isn't necessarily a bad thing).

Dual Strike going from 200% DE to 180% DE was a great step, but I still don't foresee people using non-DualStrike single target attacks in a dual wielding build. There shouldn't be anything wrong with alternating hands.

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I had not given much thought to DW casters since caster shields get such huge casting bonuses already. There is almost no point to dual-wand/sceptre for casters unless it's something like Void Battery (which gives +1 power charges and makes each VB better when both are present).

A generic cast speed buff would be decent. Again, the shields seem suspect here.

The dual wield philosophy is: more damage than 1 handed, less defense than shield.

Wands get 128% spell damage. Shields get 84% spell damage.
Wands get 109% crit chance. Shields get 109% crit chance.
Wands get 22% cast speed. Shields get 0% cast speed.

Dual wielding would give you 44% additional spell damage and 22% additional cast speed. This is not taking into account unique wands.

As far as duel wielding wands are concerned; I feel that is fitting the dual wield philosophy just fine.


Weapons I guess are a flavor thing. I personally like being able to use only my main hand for attacking. It allows me to create combinations of off hand stat sticks. I would also like to point out that you can get resistances on weapons, so you can actually create very strong "shield weapons" for dual wielding.

Alternating weapons I can't see being useful. Using both weapons simultaneously I like. However, from a skill design perspective everything I can think of basically looks the same as dual strike and cleave. Spectral throw is the only thing I would love to see that uses both weapons simultaneously.

I haven't made an elemental dual wielder. I am just not convinced that the attack speed is worth. If I ever did try it, I would not be using cleave.

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Opinionated wrote:

Wands get 128% spell damage. Shields get 84% spell damage.
Wands get 109% crit chance. Shields get 109% crit chance.
Wands get 22% cast speed. Shields get 0% cast speed.

Dual wielding would give you 44% additional spell damage and 22% additional cast speed. This is not taking into account unique wands.

As far as duel wielding wands are concerned; I feel that is fitting the dual wield philosophy just fine.

Also keep in mind that there are no good dual-wield passives for casters outside of DW block, whereas there are humongous passives for shields (notably %es on shields, resists, spell block in templar) and for DW attacking (lots of aspd and physical damage, even a little crit in Twin Terrors).

Past that, 44% spell and 22% cspd seems pretty small compared to an equivalent shield giving +base life/es and +~15% block (from 15% to 30%). Really it's just that cspd that's desirable, and most casters are already pinned on mana requirements which limits their maximum casting speed.

I created a mirror of this thread over at reddit when I made this one; it's really taken off atm. Mainly for those looking for a more active discussion:

http://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/27eke4/lets_talk_about_dual_wielding/