Let's talk about Dual Wielding...

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Mark_GGG wrote:

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pneuma wrote:

I'm a bit confused as to why GGG went with %more physical (not even elemental) damage to "fix" the offensive DW problems. They could have kept the aspd flavor by increasing the 10% more aspd to 20-30% more aspd. This would add the same amount of final damage, but would favor elemental attacking (which isn't necessarily a bad thing).

No, we couldn't. There are limits to how much total attack speed players can be allowed to obtain for multiple reasons, including technical ones. Substantially increasing the attack speed modifier for dual wielding was not a viable option.

This cap is very easily visible on Quill Rain Barrage builds, to give one example off-hand. (Even without anything like Haste or the Faster Attacks support gem.) And as far as I can tell from my experiences and talking with a couple of friends, it's heavily influenced by the quality of the user's computer and graphics settings. It's also been very apparent on a Double Strike build I've been toying with when both Multistrike and Faster Attacks were equipped.

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Mark_GGG wrote:

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pneuma wrote:

I'm a bit confused as to why GGG went with %more physical (not even elemental) damage to "fix" the offensive DW problems. They could have kept the aspd flavor by increasing the 10% more aspd to 20-30% more aspd. This would add the same amount of final damage, but would favor elemental attacking (which isn't necessarily a bad thing).

No, we couldn't. There are limits to how much total attack speed players can be allowed to obtain for multiple reasons, including technical ones. Substantially increasing the attack speed modifier for dual wielding was not a viable option.

I was afraid of this, but I know (firsthand) that enough aspd does cause problems. I partied with someone that had 14 aps cleave before multistrike was added and it was a pretty significant desync generator and performance dropper.

Though this does beg the question of why it's acceptable to introduce Multistrike (an optional and frankly recent support gem with over 100% more aspd) but it's not acceptable to give something smaller to Dual-wielding (a built-in mechanic in the game that encompasses a whole class of builds with only 10% more aspd).

It's not like dual-wielding being underpowered and only having 2 (and after Cleave was balanced, 1) choice(s) was a new problem. It's been like this for years.

this changes nothing in a simple fact: DW is pointless. it is a 'style' option. not an 'option'

1h+shield: ultimate defense with shield that also provides offensive options (for casters)
2h: non-crit top damage, 6Link, lower mana consumption due to less aspd
DW:.. in ideal conditions a slightly more dmg than 1h (weapons have to be really close together to not be a at loss compared to wielding only a better one) with some block chance.

the only stuff that saves DW (for normal, non-mirror gear) is Wings of Entropy as these provide both extra 6Link and block - so take best stuff from 2h and 1h

other than that if someone has a really good 1h weapon there is no reason to go DW. bit more damage for a price of easily capped block and huge spell block? ofc there are 'stat sticks' like Ungils etc. but cmon, this is gimping oneself just to be different.

dear ggg, your latest 'change' changed nothing to make DW a viable option. and you are afraid to touch the core of the issue: block. this absurd, binary mechanic that prevents 100% of damage (unlike armor, that you knew how to design) for a low low price of 'nothing'. as long as people can reach 'enough' damage with 1h (And with crit builds they can easily, non crit also can get there) there is no point in DW.

skill selection also does not help, same as now making phys builds a way to go for DW, while there are no negative incentives to go elemental for 1h+shield

The discrepancy between must DW and is DW is still huge.

For an simple example:

Dualstrike compared to Reave. Just by numbers, the following 4 gems are the same for both:
Mphys, Multistrike, Mphys on full Life, Faster Attacks

Dualstrike multiplier (Dualstrike - Msplash): DW 0.9eff - 16%/30%less - 2 due to weapons (assuming your weapons your weapons have the same dps) = 1.51 [0.9*0.84*2] main target, 1.26 other targets

Reave (gems: Reave - Conc Eff): multiplier 1.69 for all targets, but little smaller AoE

So, yea, the dual wielding skill total got outperformed by an skill, which is supposed to be for 1H ? Lolz..

Dual Strike needs 1.25 effectivity for phys. At least.

I think dual wielding is in the right spot and like the improvement ideas you ppl have thrown out there. But i want to make one more point on caster dualwielding thing and it is 80% global crit chance on daggers which dualwielded is a great boon. which i didnt see anyone mentioning. everyone was just talking about dualwielding wands as a caster.

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Mark_GGG wrote:

My understanding is that the issues are primarily with frequency of actions performed. Multistrike does not significantly impact this as the whole attack including all repeats is a single action. The attack speed on multistrike is a counterbalance to the fact it's otherwise making an action take three times as long.

Thus, for purposes of the technically limitations around this, multistrike isn't a problem. It's a contributor to lesser problems such as "the level of high attack speed available looks fucking stupid and detracts from the game looking good" but that's of lesser (but not no) importance.

That's... a very interesting view into the issue. :)

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SayyadinaAtreides wrote:

It's also been very apparent on a Double Strike build I've been toying with when both Multistrike and Faster Attacks were equipped.

Sorry, I was very unclear here: this is a low-life build with Last Resort in the offhand (providing a 25% attack speed boost) and a few attack speed nodes in the tree along with a relatively fast main claw (Bloodseeker). Playing around with it a bit more, the removal of Multistrike doesn't feel like nearly as much of a performance boost as the removal of Faster Attacks (which got so pesky that as soon as I had the sockets I swapped it for one of the phys damage supports--though a good chunk of that may be the visual struggle with MS + FA + Double Strike).

Point being, more attack speed on dual-wielding would be absolutely silly.

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sidtherat wrote:

and you are afraid to touch the core of the issue: block. this absurd, binary mechanic that prevents 100% of damage (unlike armor, that you knew how to design) for a low low price of 'nothing'.

Ever heard of stun? Yes, yes, Unwavering Stance etc., but that's totally out of the way for many builds that are debating between DW and shield use.

[Post Edited by Support]

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SayyadinaAtreides wrote:

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sidtherat wrote:

and you are afraid to touch the core of the issue: block. this absurd, binary mechanic that prevents 100% of damage (unlike armor, that you knew how to design) for a low low price of 'nothing'.

Ever heard of stun? Yes, yes, Unwavering Stance etc., but that's totally out of the way for many builds that are debating between DW and shield use.

[Post Edited by Support]

Second is void of practical value. With 5k hp stun happens so rarely and 'block stun'..have yet to experience it. If it happens at all it is not impacting gameplay in the slightest.

[Post Edited by Support]