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sidtherat wrote:
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tikitaki wrote:
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sidtherat wrote:
i expect BM gem to get hit sooner than latter. it is no-brainer choice and ggg seems to be very determined to remove such choices (Except iron reflexes.. that puzzles me a bit)
and WHAT COST? like 5-6 passives, not more. i deem it to be a fair cost
and 'standard' builds - like in 4L builds - have no mana issues if they dont over-stack their dps
it is all matter of greed - dps greed. no mana system will ever be fine if people are expecting to spend ZERO mana points and consider 3 points to be over the top. with such mindset nothing is going to be 'ok'
6 passives dedicated to mana is a shitload.
This outlook is the exact opposite of how a good system functions.
A good system encourages a wide variety of different builds and facilitates players achieving that.
A bad system forces every build down the same path, which seems to be exactly what you are advocating. Boo.
Also, you're starting to show a significant lack of knowledge in the subject area. 5 - 6 passives and you're done? For a CI self-cast attacker?
Clearly you have never done that build before, or at least never really gone very far with it. The mana system is hilariously bad.
6 out of 100 is acceptable. and is needed only if you use extreme aspd attacks and few 150%cost supports (multistrikes 180% says hi). i hope that people start thinking now in more than one dimension. thats called diversity - want huuuuge paper dps? foot the bill
how many points have you put into damage? 20? life/es? 40? and 6 is suddenly a lot?
say it - youd like all skills to be free
it is like that ferrari - you want one, you buy one but you 'forget' that you need to actually support it and then cry foul
CI self-casters are in the worst situation (Esp freezepulse) but i hope ggg solves it
You know not everything is level 80, with alot of supporting gear and 6 points is the AVERAGE amount for mana. This says nothing about mana regen/all of the other "facets" of mana management. This is from people saying they are trying to support 4 links, this isn't even 5-6 links yet.
This isn't diversity when you don't set up the system properly for it, everything will literally avoid high mana costing attacks or just stop playing the game when just attacking with how they want to play is too difficult. (Or just use BM, instant keystone or gem answer)
This isn't a "ferrari" it's being able to play the game and JUST attack monsters, it's like getting a starter car and your insurance jacks up your rates by a metric shit ton to were you can't afford the car anymore because your young. Rich people who are level 85+ who have a ferrari are rich, the mana costs for them is not even an issue to begin with.
The solution is to "tell them to make more money, manage your finances better or buy a cheaper car?" Really?
Last edited by RagnarokChu#4426 on Mar 10, 2014, 4:14:14 PM
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Posted byRagnarokChu#4426on Mar 10, 2014, 4:08:40 PM
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buying a cheaper car if you cant afford a better one IS a solution.. sorry - but it is how it works. in game and in real life.
and yes, ill tell them to get more money if they want a better car (or get older - insurance rates for young drivers are there just because young cause majority of accidents.. so there IS a reason for that)
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Posted bysidtherat#1310on Mar 10, 2014, 4:18:09 PM
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sidtherat wrote:
it is like that ferrari - you want one, you buy one but you 'forget' that you need to actually support it and then cry foul
OMFG sidtherat are you punking me??!
Literally like 4 posts before yours I wrote this exact paragraph:
"The point is that we could afford it. It's like carefully budgeting, spending your money on a new Jag (as an existing analogy states), finding it very, very affordable for, say, a few years, then having Jaguar retroactively triple the price, somehow charge you backpayments and then repossesing your house when you can't pay."
Please take the time to read some other comments before writing bad analogies, someone might have already written a more accurate bad analogy. I've gone up to 4 levels without spending points just to make sure I can afford whatever comes up next. Overspend my ***.
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Posted byAnotherJuan#4367on Mar 10, 2014, 4:26:10 PM
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AnotherJuan wrote:
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sidtherat wrote:
it is like that ferrari - you want one, you buy one but you 'forget' that you need to actually support it and then cry foul
OMFG sidtherat are you punking me??!
Literally like 4 posts before yours I wrote this exact paragraph:
"The point is that we could afford it. It's like carefully budgeting, spending your money on a new Jag (as an existing analogy states), finding it very, very affordable for, say, a few years, then having Jaguar retroactively triple the price, somehow charge you backpayments and then repossesing your house when you can't pay."
Please take the time to read some other comments before writing bad analogies, someone might have already written a more accurate bad analogy. I've gone up to 4 levels without spending points just to make sure I can afford whatever comes up next. Overspend my ***.
thats why you had your full respec.
if ggg had not provided it i would be the first one to cry foul
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Posted bysidtherat#1310on Mar 10, 2014, 4:30:40 PM
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sidtherat wrote:
want huuuuge paper dps? foot the bill
Off-topic and irrelevant. Nobody mentioned "huge paper dps" except you. This is just misdirection against the core issue: mana.
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sidtherat wrote:
how many points have you put into damage? 20? life/es? 40? and 6 is suddenly a lot?
When you are strained just to have enough survivability to LIVE, let alone do good damage, yes, 6 nodes is a lot.
Also, I don't know anybody in the league I play who can afford to spend 20 nodes on dps. That's insane.
Nobody balances around scrubcore. That's why there's legacy items there -- because it's a cesspit of broken builds and broken items and the sum of it will NEVER be balanced.
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sidtherat wrote:
say it - youd like all skills to be free
I wouldn't say something I don't agree with, so no.
It seems you've run out of actual logical points, so you've resorted to pinning random shit on me that I didn't say.
Obviously skills shouldn't be free to cast, but it shouldn't feel like climbing a mountain to attack.
Look at the situation Marauders and Duelists are in, and to a lesser extent Rangers. Sure, there *exist* mana nodes for you to take, and some of them are close. But if you want more than a few, you will be forced along specific lines of the skill tree, which may or may not already break the build you were trying for.
It's almost as if GGG is trying on purpose to pigeonhole many builds into Blood Magic -- and it's working
Last edited by tikitaki#3010 on Mar 10, 2014, 4:46:18 PM
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Posted bytikitaki#3010on Mar 10, 2014, 4:44:02 PM
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AnotherJuan wrote:
I love this game. I would have its babies, like Arnie in Junior, if it were possible for a man to give birth to the spawn of a computer game.
I think it’s kind of unfair that it’s hard to talk about POE without referencing Diablo II, especially since (heresy alert!) POE eclipses that seminal game in just about every single way (except cut scenes, but I’ll forgive you for that). However, please forgive me as I’m forced to recall one area in which I find myself craving that old dinosaur once again. Offline play. Or more specifically (stay with me) constancy.
You made the best ARPG money can buy, and then gave it away for free and it still took me over a year to relent and play it because of the always online component. I hate online. I hate it because it means I can’t play when the internet goes wrong, I hate lag, and I hate it more because, unlike Diablo II, where my characters are still sat on a USB stick at level 80, ready to go whenever I want them, my character is sat on your server at your mercy. And that, clearly, is paranoia on my account.
Except that now my character is dead, following the mana-leech nerf. He’s unplayable. He is, as far as I can tell, unrecoverable. I could roll 2 more characters to try and find enough fusings to get 5 links and use blood magic, (after all, two characters to merciless have so far failed to achieve this) but why would I? I put a billion hours into my main already, and he’s worthless now. Why invest a billion more? And I bought stuff for a game that no longer wants to play with me. I can’t stick with a game that doesn’t want to stick with me.
Anyway, this isn’t an ultimatum. My account is worth very little to you. And I love you guys. I’m grateful that you made the world’s best ARPG, I’m grateful that you listened to the world’s likeminded fans and said “the world needs a gritty ARPG, with real choices and real builds and real freedom” and then actually made the damn thing. But a lot of people think like me (well, not exactly, but close enough). What, 3% of your user base use the forums? I was in the 97% until this patch. 97% aren’t even social enough to use the forums. 97% basically just want to play. And that’s fine, that was me, and I was super-happy. But that percentage, along, I’m sure, with many of the good posters here, are not going to react well if the characters they’ve poured their hearts and souls into are rendered useless with – what was it – about 5 days warning on the patch notes? If they read ‘em. Somewhere in the small print. This online thing is still a battleground for players hearts and minds. Giving the game away was a howitzer. Making it the best damn ARPG in the world was a WMD. But making us care about our builds means it only cuts deeper when you cull them like this.
So please, please, from the bottom of my hearts, revert the leech changes. And give me my favourite game back. Thanks for reading.
Unfortunately for you and most of us any post with the keywords "nerf" "unplayable" and "useless" along with many others like "aura nerf" and "self-found" are auto deleted at GGG head office.
But good post, i feel your pain.
"Blue warrior shot the food"
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Posted bymaxor#5545on Mar 10, 2014, 4:59:47 PM
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sidtherat wrote:
thats why you had your full respec.
if ggg had not provided it i would be the first one to cry foul
Well at least you read my post this time so I'll try to respond civilly.
As stated repeatedly the new leech system is unpredictable since you're no longer getting, say, 4% leech, but some function of that. From the wording of the patch notes "The way leech applies to the player has changed. If you leech additional life while currently leeching" few people predicted mana leech would even change, let alone the implications of it. If I said "The way you watch TV is going to change. From now on channel 4 will be on channel 5." you would not assume that channels 1-3 would also change, although I hadn't stated that channel 4 was the only change and all channels are included with the scope of "watching TV". Anyway, point is that for a billion reasons, not least that *you shouldn't have to read the patch notes to understand how the game works* - no one could be expected to predict this - let alone predict it precisely, which would be necessary to respec precisely, blind. With that in mind,
1. I load up the game post-patch.
2. My character has no armour equipped, because he has no passives assigned at all, presumably because the entire south-west section's been re-structured (ditto my marauder).
3. I try to reconstruct my build, bearing in mind that huge life nerfs have happened to my part of the tree, and I'll need to assign points to cover gear requirements which means doing it all in one go if I want to actually use the guy. At this point I'm trying (and failing) to get the character just AS GOOD as he was pre-patch.
4. I no longer have a respec - that was it.
5. I find I've lost a few hundred life, but that's balance I guess.
6. I find out the character doesn't work anymore.
7. I'm boned.
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Posted byAnotherJuan#4367on Mar 10, 2014, 5:10:01 PM
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AnotherJuan wrote:
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sidtherat wrote:
thats why you had your full respec.
if ggg had not provided it i would be the first one to cry foul
Well at least you read my post this time so I'll try to respond civilly.
As stated repeatedly the new leech system is unpredictable since you're no longer getting, say, 4% leech, but some function of that. From the wording of the patch notes "The way leech applies to the player has changed. If you leech additional life while currently leeching" few people predicted mana leech would even change, let alone the implications of it. If I said "The way you watch TV is going to change. From now on channel 4 will be on channel 5." you would not assume that channels 1-3 would also change, although I hadn't stated that channel 4 was the only change and all channels are included with the scope of "watching TV". Anyway, point is that for a billion reasons, not least that *you shouldn't have to read the patch notes to understand how the game works* - no one could be expected to predict this - let alone predict it precisely, which would be necessary to respec precisely, blind. With that in mind,
1. I load up the game post-patch.
2. My character has no armour equipped, because he has no passives assigned at all, presumably because the entire south-west section's been re-structured (ditto my marauder).
3. I try to reconstruct my build, bearing in mind that huge life nerfs have happened to my part of the tree, and I'll need to assign points to cover gear requirements which means doing it all in one go if I want to actually use the guy. At this point I'm trying (and failing) to get the character just AS GOOD as he was pre-patch.
4. I no longer have a respec - that was it.
5. I find I've lost a few hundred life, but that's balance I guess.
6. I find out the character doesn't work anymore.
7. I'm boned.
can you link your gear and passives? mana leech changes change nothing mid-fight. it is the between-the-encounters that had changed. so you are not full mana at the start of engagement. as such this affects fast attackers/small hitters the most
btw i respec in few waves. first the nodes i have to take. then to fill my gear requirements (not gems!) and then open pathofpoe or similar build calvulator and check whats up. it takes up to one hour. i also bothed my first respec long time ago..
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Posted bysidtherat#1310on Mar 10, 2014, 5:38:19 PM
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sidtherat wrote:
can you link your gear and passives? mana leech changes change nothing mid-fight. it is the between-the-encounters that had changed. so you are not full mana at the start of engagement. as such this affects fast attackers/small hitters the most
btw i respec in few waves. first the nodes i have to take. then to fill my gear requirements (not gems!) and then open pathofpoe or similar build calvulator and check whats up. it takes up to one hour. i also bothed my first respec long time ago..
I appreciate the attempt to help but ML changes DO change mid-fight. Simple evidence:
Before: run up to bad guys, fight them, never have any huge problems.
After: run up to blue/yellow bad guy, fight, run out of mana and start throwing normal hits before they're down to half health. In combat whole time. It takes me about 1.5 white bad guys to run out of mana now.
Why? You may ask. Well, it's not clear from the descriptions, but since the "largest leech wins" it's possible that your second strike wont even register for mana leech because the first one, still going, is slightly larger. In this case you'd loose on average half your mana leech, even mid fight. If you attack fast enough you might loose more than that. If you need lots of successive hits to get up to max-recharge speed then you'll also loose out if the next hit overrides, rather than adds to, the existing hits leech, because you'll never come close to max recharge speed. Its frankly ridiculous that we've got to figure this out when it SAYS we've got a set percentage.
I don't have my tree handy but I had the 3-ring in the centre of the duellist area (not much, but something) lots of intelligence on items and have tried saving this character with up to 6% mana leech (from items, no passives handy for duellist) and clarity, all at once, to no avail. Hence my grumpiness >:(
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Posted byAnotherJuan#4367on Mar 10, 2014, 5:54:50 PM
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sidtherat wrote:
mana leech changes change nothing mid-fight.
Are you joking?
Before, could quickly build up a "pool" of leech, and it will come in as fast as your leech rate allows (which would be proportional your max life and maybe a few other factors like quality on LL/ML)
Now:
"Technically, where multiple leeches are stacked, the largest one is used."
This means the pool is gone. It means if you are a fast attacking build that has somewhat low damage per hit, your leech rate will always be hilariously low because you won't be able to leech much from your small hits (and they won't stack in any way).
I can't believe you would seek to comment on these issues without even understanding them.
Last edited by tikitaki#3010 on Mar 10, 2014, 6:00:19 PM
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Posted bytikitaki#3010on Mar 10, 2014, 5:59:32 PM
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