Appeal to GGG – Mana leech

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sidtherat wrote:

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raics wrote:

Spoiler

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Assuming single-target, the 50 damage at 3 APS currently leeches the same amount as the 150 damage at 1 APS. Weapon speed is also irrelevant.

Goddamn man, when did you stop reading posts? :/

You leech the same - yes, but you spend more. If you use the same weapon and increase attack speed you spend more mana, but your dps gos up just as much so you leech more. However, if you switch out that weapon for the one with twice the APS but half the damage you leech the same, but you dish out twice as much attacks to do it and spend more relative to leeched amount.

You have a weapon that does 1 APS, you do 100 damage per hit and leech 10% of it as mana, your skill costs 10 mana to use.

On vanilla you hit once per second, spend 10 mana, gain 10 mana back. Your mana balance per second is zero.

If you increase your atack speed by 100 with passives and using same weapon you attack twice per second, spend 20 mana and leech 20 mana back, 10 per hit. Zero again.

However, if you now switch your weapon for the one that has 2 APS, and does 50 damage per hit, you have the same dps doing 4 hits at 50 damage, you leech 20 mana back, the same amount as before, but you spend 40 mana doing those 4 attacks. Now you're 20 in the minus.

and thanks to that going fastest weapon is no longer a brain-dead choice! i consider it a good thing

Raics has a point in terms of me not understanding posts — I was overlooking a point he was trying to make.

Still, sid is right here. It's no longer a matter of just picking the fastest weapon, because you might not be able to sustain continuously with it. Picking a slower weapon gives you worse DPS but better mana efficiency, which is a damn good tradeoff.

I think that once players get used to the new way leech works, they're be more competition between the various weapon types for us, instead of every good bow being either a Thicket or a unique.

^

Not really in the long term compared to just going BM/LGoH though. Unlike leech it's instant, stacks, activates on everything hit and can be reliable. Otherwise EB/MoM + clarity will be used along with just enough into the skill's cost to make it spammable non stop no matter the speed. And even without BM/LGoH we have the thief's torment ring.

Regardless, relying on leech is avoided and that isn't even looking at the game breaking power of those atziri gloves that were datamined.


Some builds will work well with adjusting to a slower weapon for leech, but I'm willing to best most gravitate toward the two I mentioned and some builds will start using stuff like thief's torment or mind spiral to make mana costs trivial. Reduced mana cost gem may also begin to get some usage beyond just auras and there are always the cast on gems also.


edit - in other words the best weapons will still be either the fastest or with the highest crit and all that is going to change is how we recover our resource costs. And for that we have just a few probable means; lgoh/bm, mgoh (thief's torment), regen and uniques that restore mana based on damage taken.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Still, sid is right here. It's no longer a matter of just picking the fastest weapon, because you might not be able to sustain continuously with it. Picking a slower weapon gives you worse DPS but better mana efficiency, which is a damn good tradeoff.

Yeah, that would be all well and good, I like tradeoffs, however, fast weapon preference doesn't really have much to do with dps, especially since enemy resists skyrocketed and flat elemental auras became a bit less popular. It has been mentioned a lot of times, I suppose, but the main culprit is the game execution, not being able to interrupt animations means a faster weapon gives us much better control over our character. Also, favoring aspd modes on gear and passives as a way of dps scaling also has a boon of affecting movement skills, which doesn't make a lot of sense but makes for a hell of a useful trick.

Ehem, no matter how much having such a tradeoff sounds tempting, it would be pretty hard to implement here, a lot of skills can blur the line between 'slow' and 'fast' weapons, opening the way for cheesy combos or even right out exploits, so not a lot of games even try to compensate for weapon speed. One of the rare examples is hellgate london, if you put an elemental effect with a chance to activate on hit on a slow weapon, like sniper rifle, the chance will be boosted to compensate for weapon speed.

The leech nerf was too much! Especially the mana leech nerf.

I hope it will be fixed with the next patch.

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neuerkunde wrote:

The leech nerf was too much! Especially the mana leech nerf.

I hope it will be fixed with the next patch.

Actually, the leech nerf kinda was the fix.

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sidtherat wrote:

my reaver:

This is a glass cannon build as far as I'm concerned. You have very little life, many pieces of gear without +base life, and the lack of STR doesn't help either. I fail to see how you can possibly stay alive in maps with what i assume is equal to or less than 3k health.

Sure, you might not have mana problems, but I can make the same build with BM, get MUCH more life, regen, and still have comparable damage because I don't need to take mana nodes.

In addition, those blood dance boots would benefit you much more if you had a high total life pool.

I don't mean to bash your build, I'm just trying to make a point that mana is a pretty bad resource right now.