Appeal to GGG – Mana leech

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

My distinct impression from this is that the only characters seriously gimped by the life leech change are those which were not planning a single-target of any kind, while choosing a primary skill which either has the "AoE" tag or chains a lot. The solution, however, isn't hard: actually run a single-target skill, instead of being a one-skill-spam autopilot monkey! These still leech great, and can be used to simultaneously heal and pick off stragglers who are separated from the group.

Scrotie, say "hello!" to this, even before 1.1.0, underwhelmed skill, virtually killed by mana leech changes:



And yes, obviously my Reaver had also single target skill, because Reave is not so great against single target.

Oh my greed, why I had mana for only 10 cast of my Reave, my bad, my bad... I should be severely punished, as I wanted to use Reave normal way, not for CoCS build.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Attack speed and cast speed are irrelevant here. If you had 3k life, 10k single-target DPS, and 6% life leech, you were sitting right at leech cap pre-1.1 when using that skill, and are sitting right at the leech cap post-1.1 as well; essentially zero nerf. This is true whether you have ten APS or two.

It is the AoE component, and only the AoE component, which is hit hard with a nerf bat. Four simultaneous hits for 2500 DPS used to leech as much as a single-target for 10k DPS; this is no longer the case, cut drastically by 75%.

My distinct impression from this is that the only characters seriously gimped by the life leech change are those which were not planning a single-target of any kind, while choosing a primary skill which either has the "AoE" tag or chains a lot.

Attack speed increases are irrelevant but weapon speed isn't, with a weapon doing 50 damage and three attacks per second you did same damage and leeched the same amount as a 150 damage weapon that hits only once but you spent three times as much mana. That's fine as far as life is concerned because you're meant to use life on hit with those, but we don't have mana on hit.

Chaining is actually a good idea, it gives you delayed hits which help fill the leech gap. Multistrike is also a good idea, it reduces damage (and leech amount) by a bit over a third but cuts attack time by half, with skills that do delayed hits it can eliminate gaps entirely. I've been testing GS last night and multistrike makes it much more sustainable in practice, even more than its positive DPS/mana ratio of 1,28/1,20 would suggest.

Splash really depends on what are you splashing with and the cost of your attack, because of low damage penalty on main attack it behaves much like single target skills as far as leech is concerned but high mana multiplier can make it hard to sustain, splashed damage helped with leech before but it doesn't do anything now.

Well the change seems strange somehow. I have a pure Rain of Arrows and a supported Split Arrow both having about the same mana-cost.

However Splitarrow sustains fine, Rain of Arrows doesn't.

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Emphasy wrote:

Well the change seems strange somehow. I have a pure Rain of Arrows and a supported Split Arrow both having about the same mana-cost.

However Splitarrow sustains fine, Rain of Arrows doesn't.

heeeh

I would have bet for the exact opposite since RoA deals all of its damage at the same time Oo, I'm a little lost there from this ...

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tmaciak wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

My distinct impression from this is that the only characters seriously gimped by the life leech change are those which were not planning a single-target of any kind, while choosing a primary skill which either has the "AoE" tag or chains a lot. The solution, however, isn't hard: actually run a single-target skill, instead of being a one-skill-spam autopilot monkey! These still leech great, and can be used to simultaneously heal and pick off stragglers who are separated from the group.

Scrotie, say "hello!" to this, even before 1.1.0, underwhelmed skill, virtually killed by mana leech changes:

And yes, obviously my Reaver had also single target skill, because Reave is not so great against single target.

Oh my greed, why I had mana for only 10 cast of my Reave, my bad, my bad... I should be severely punished, as I wanted to use Reave normal way, not for CoCS build.

How much mana does you reave need with 4 supports on it ? and how many attacks/seconds ? :X
Maybe you need a high level clarity now + some inc mana regen nodes and auras nodes if you wanna use it with mana I guess.
I don't think that this was intended for this skill, I hope that GGG will do something about it, same for split arrow.
Some "mana per hit" nodes would be very nice, even small ones ( = 3*"2 mana per hit" node would work fine imho ).

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Fruz wrote:

I don't think that this was intended for this skill, I hope that GGG will do something about it, same for split arrow.
Some "mana per hit" nodes would be very nice, even small ones ( = 3*"2 mana per hit" node would work fine imho ).

Probably not, reave was meant to be an 'el cheapo' AoE skill for fast attackers, which is readily apparent from its weapon alignment.

Yeah, mana on hit would fix the issue but not solve the problem... and would probably break more stuff than it would fix.

'On hit' effects are reeeeally dangerous, that's why you can't proc them with skills in TL2, only normal attacks and a few carefully chosen skills like arctic breath which can do life and mana on hit when on final upgrade tier. They took the easy way out.

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Fruz wrote:

How much mana does you reave need with 4 supports on it ? and how many attacks/seconds ? :X

It was ~30 mana per cast @ 11 APS. With Multistike, so you can divide it roughly by 3.

Anyway, my answer to Reave problem is below. DPS is rather on the shitty side, but still 30% more than previously on my Ranger.



So Sid, am I greedy and haven't put any point into mana passives still? :P

Now also have mana problems with reave. I mean wtf was wrong with mana leech (besides the stupid cap)? Not that Mana leech is sooo easy to get on gear.
You should revert the changes and even remove the cap or at least make it instant recovery while having Vaal Pact

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tmaciak wrote:

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Fruz wrote:

How much mana does you reave need with 4 supports on it ? and how many attacks/seconds ? :X

It was ~30 mana per cast @ 11 APS. With Multistike, so you can divide it roughly by 3.

Anyway, my answer to Reave problem is below. DPS is rather on the shitty side, but still 30% more than previously on my Ranger.

Spoiler

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgABA5YFLQ5IEZYVIBa_GNsa2xutG_oc3B6UIWAj9iQ8Jd8mlSepKk0s6S9vOyg94j8nQKBGcUd-SO5JUUp9SshT31VLVvpY21pIWm1br2BDYEth4mKsZU1noG17bj1uaXBScLt07XTxeu9_xoIeguSDCYTZhO-FMod2h9uIQoqvjDaQEZMnm4Odqp65pBmmf6c0p1yrxaw_rK-xs7QMtUi3076nvrzAD8BRwcXEuNJN1fjWndfL2RPbC9xX3Q3jhO1B7g7v8PPq_MU=

So Sid, am I greedy and haven't put any point into mana passives still? :P

Well mana geyser/primal spirit are definitely on your reach if you still need, I think that you should be able to manage with one or both of those, 100 mana/sec does no seem huge when you consider some new leech + you actual mana regeneration.
Have you not tried on the ranger ? It definitely seems manageable even without EB to me, but it needs some mana investment, more than previously obviously :s.

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Fruz wrote:

Have you not tried on the ranger ? It definitely seems manageable even without EB to me, but it needs some mana investment, more than previously obviously :s.

I had Primal Spirit and Mana Geyser was 6 more point to invest. I would need to resign from defense or offense (rather from offense). And have even more shitty DPS that I had (Reave is not so strong DPS wise). So better to invest few more points, take EB and have not only shitload of mana but also additional buffer and possibility to use higher level Arctic Armor.

As it was written, the worse thing about this leech change is not that this change suck, though it is. The problem is, that alternatives sucks even more... and push fast attackers into BM gem/EB route.

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sidtherat wrote:

attack speed IS a factor. 10kdps with one attack per sec with last hit leeches 2% of that ammount

with 10aps it leeches .2%

during combat it makes no difference (if leech-capped). but last hit determines mana amount before next engagement.

Okay, this is a valid point. But it's still not a major factor. People aren't really concerned about their post-combat recoup, they concerned with their mid-combat recoup. Which is why I was, and will continue to be, talking exclusively about mid-combat recoup.

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tmaciak wrote:

Scrotie, say "hello!" to this, even before 1.1.0, underwhelmed skill, virtually killed by mana leech changes:

The leech change exclusively hurts simultaneously (or near-simultaneously) hitting AoE skills. Reave is already pretty weak before 1.1, and it fits precisely in the class of skills nerfed. So, yes, Reave is in a very bad spot right now.

The correct response is to buff Reave specifically, not to reverse the leech changes.

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raics wrote:

Attack speed increases are irrelevant but weapon speed isn't, with a weapon doing 50 damage and three attacks per second you did same damage and leeched the same amount as a 150 damage weapon that hits only once but you spent three times as much mana.

Um, no. Assuming single-target, the 50 damage at 3 APS currently leeches the same amount as the 150 damage at 1 APS. Weapon speed is also irrelevant.