Appeal to GGG – Mana leech

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allbusiness wrote:

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sidtherat wrote:

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AnotherJuan wrote:

He's mad because the patch killed his character. I'm mad because it's killed mine. And collectively there are at least 25 pages on mana specifically being an issue now.

Please for the love of God read some of the ten thousand posts here about all the manymanymamanymanymanymany things we've tried and how none of it works and how it does ******* affect us mid fight before antagonising further.

youve tried manymany things and yet youve not linked your build/gear - in such case it is just qq

what people here say is they think that 3 nodes is too much and 6 is absolute insanity! with such mindset i wish them all the best

Considering that 85% of your tree has to be defensive just to survive most 74+ maps yes, sparing 3 to 6 nodes is pretty hard.

if someone refuses to use said 6 nodes - there are mana pots waiting there to be used. i knew people wanted it easy and effortless (while claiming to be hardcore etc) but this thread amazes me. such attitude in real life wont end pretty

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sidtherat wrote:

if someone refuses to use said 6 nodes - there are mana pots waiting there to be used. i knew people wanted it easy and effortless (while claiming to be hardcore etc) but this thread amazes me. such attitude in real life wont end pretty

I don't think you understand.


If you play 74+ maps you know that well over 80% of your tree HAS to be defensive. This means that for a character that is level 80+ you can maybe spare anywhere from 15-20 points total on things like keystones, offense, etc. where the vast majority of your build has to go into things like life, resists, block, etc. whatever you're doing to keep yourself alive.

Unless you are like 95+, you do not have 6 points to spare if you want to not get one shot by some of the mobs in a 74+ map. It's even worse in Invasion League where literally 90% of your points have to be in defense, otherwise you just straight die.

CI is probably the only build that can spare points to take mana nodes, but CI is pretty fucking tough as it is to run already (you need supreme ES gear to make it work, which is expensive as hell). If you were arguing that a CI build should take mana, you might have a case.


For life builds though, sparing 6 points for mana is basically not feasible, especially when those 6 nodes could have been put into more life, defense, block, etc.

i understand. path of life is sadly still with us

but bow builds cant use block and these are the most affected

i still havent seen a tree of one of the person claiming they 'tried with mana and it doesnt work'

leech works mid-fight just like it did previously - considering you were capped already. if not.. well then it doesnt


anyway, today ill respec another of my characters - 1h high aspd reaver and well see how impossible it is to manage it on mana with 2 (or ill go for 3?) auras.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

If you guys haven't figured it out yet, one of the points of the leech change was precisely to make some of your skills unsustainable. You're not supposed to be able to mindlessly spam certain skills, in particular AoE nukes, endlessly.

Reave is a nuke? Are you saying AoE with fast attacks should be unsustainable but slow attacks are fine. Cyclone, ground slam or ST, which do a lot of delayed AoE hits are fine even with fast weapons but cleave isn't?

I know what they're trying to do, the problem is it isn't working.

And you still can do it till your heart's content with a certain investment in mana management which is pretty awkward to do with southern attack builds. Are we supposed to do it or not? If yes, with how much hassle?

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

If you guys haven't figured it out yet, one of the points of the leech change was precisely to make some of your skills unsustainable. You're not supposed to be able to mindlessly spam certain skills, in particular AoE nukes, endlessly.

Scrotie, I would agree if we had significantly more sockets to experiment with but we don't. By virtue of the way mana and combat works all skills must be sustainable. I would agree if mana was reworked to be more like TitanQuest or if we had secondary skills that generated mana. And frankly, with the addition of Vaal Skills we have real nukes and souls are a much better way to do that. So, it seems to me that inculcation doesn't fly anymore.

I do agree some skills should demand more mana specialization to sustain. But we should no longer look at mana as a prohibitory factor of builds, instead it should be seen as a build consideration - mana options should be plenty but also mutually exclusive. Mana sustainability should be a consideration like resistance and survivability, something that distinguishes players and imparts a different play style.

I wrote a post about this earlier in the thread but it appears to have gotten buried, oh well.

How I would change mana, page 8 of Appeal to GGG - Mana Leech

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sidtherat wrote:

i havent seen anyone with balanced tree to post here that he has issues.

what i suspect is: passive trees with zero mana investment + mind drinker + 8aps + 80 unreserved mana with their primary attack costing 70.

greed

and you are wrong: top characters as is 'top dmg characters' DO worry about these changes because most of these top builds had absurd attack speed. and the very builds affected are these with absurd attack speeds

Tree


I can't sustain my Doublestrike anymore (with slitherpinch manaleech) 4Linked (one of it is BLIND which has 0% mana increase).

Yeah sure I could grab the mana nodes next to me there, but that would be 3 more points (and I have only 3k life now because they changed life wheel)

It just means now I need to become even higher level to do the same that I did before and my fucking character wasn't even that strong. He was doing less than 4k doublestrike splash damage.

Wow such balance, much change.

Fuck this. I just want a simple melee character to be viable without requiring BoR and Soul Taker. Just simple melee, without OP gear.

Oh and here is my gear (with mana on it!):

If I didn't know any better I'd say GGG has been paid off by those slithery Blizards to fuck something up so people would buy that angel of death, guardian of the blind, harvester of something - thingie.

Heh, but that's plain ridiculous, right... right?

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raics wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

If you guys haven't figured it out yet, one of the points of the leech change was precisely to make some of your skills unsustainable. You're not supposed to be able to mindlessly spam certain skills, in particular AoE nukes, endlessly.

Reave is a nuke?

^^ this

GGG continuously proves, that logic is reverted on southern hemisphere, because most affected by mana leech changes skills are quite reverse to "nukes":

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raics wrote:

Skills affected a lot:
Reave
Split Arrow
Cleave
Lightning Arrow
Sweep
Leap Slam
Rain of arrows

Regarding Melee Splash, it depends IMO on skill and weapon used, I have two characters with Melee Splashed Heavy Strike and they are doing quite well with modest investment into mana, though on my templar I have to gear mana flask on half regen 73+ maps.

Of course there are ways... on my EB/MoM Scions will be respecced to be my new Reaver. I hope that it will not be to savvy on mana build and I will be able to use Reave.

Because it is soo nuke... and I'm soo greedy, want to use 30 mana cost skill with 300 mana pool...

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raics wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

If you guys haven't figured it out yet, one of the points of the leech change was precisely to make some of your skills unsustainable. You're not supposed to be able to mindlessly spam certain skills, in particular AoE nukes, endlessly.

Reave is a nuke? Are you saying AoE with fast attacks should be unsustainable but slow attacks are fine. Cyclone, ground slam or ST, which do a lot of delayed AoE hits are fine even with fast weapons but cleave isn't?

I know what they're trying to do, the problem is it isn't working.

And you still can do it till your heart's content with a certain investment in mana management which is pretty awkward to do with southern attack builds. Are we supposed to do it or not? If yes, with how much hassle?

Perhaps "nuke" wasn't the best word for me to use, because it implies "slow." I really just meant any form of simultaneous AoE build which doesn't include a single-target skill as a fallback option.

Attack speed and cast speed are irrelevant here. If you had 3k life, 10k single-target DPS, and 6% life leech, you were sitting right at leech cap pre-1.1 when using that skill, and are sitting right at the leech cap post-1.1 as well; essentially zero nerf. This is true whether you have ten APS or two.

It is the AoE component, and only the AoE component, which is hit hard with a nerf bat. Four simultaneous hits for 2500 DPS used to leech as much as a single-target for 10k DPS; this is no longer the case, cut drastically by 75%.

My distinct impression from this is that the only characters seriously gimped by the life leech change are those which were not planning a single-target of any kind, while choosing a primary skill which either has the "AoE" tag or chains a lot. The solution, however, isn't hard: actually run a single-target skill, instead of being a one-skill-spam autopilot monkey! These still leech great, and can be used to simultaneously heal and pick off stragglers who are separated from the group.

attack speed IS a factor. 10kdps with one attack per sec with last hit leeches 2% of that ammount

with 10aps it leeches .2%

during combat it makes no difference (if leech-capped). but last hit determines mana amount before next engagement.