My problem with poe.xyz and why do I think it fucked the economy

What tradecore people don't understand is that when a good item drops, I don't see $$$ exalts!!, I see a potential to reroll (if the item is not usable for the current char). Even some GGG top brass doesn't understand this simple ARPG logic, it seems.

$$$ exalts mentality == Auction house 3 mentality (that's why AH3 failed, btw)

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danisonxtc wrote:

i rly like when i put BO's on my gear and 1 week later everyone sets their BO prices at the same lvl :)

This.

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Inexium2 wrote:

Economy can be controlled through several roads:
Poe.xyz.us Buyouts.
Forum selling threads
Chat spam

As i said on the past, flippers flip each others, all of them are making the prices rise and fall for different customers from different worlds. edit: at the same time.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

You're trying to have your cake and eat it, too. First you say you don't want a stock market, then you say you like the leading stock market site because it makes trading shares so convenient.

No, Scrotie, I'm trying to say that I don't want a stock market at all. But as of this moment, since GGG DOES want a stock market simulator, then I'd rather use the leading stock market site because it makes a (almost) mandatory task easier with, than without.

But if the decision were up to me, I would like NOT to have the stock market at all, which then invalidates the need for sites like XYZ.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Trading should be more difficult. There are two ways to increase difficulty: erecting arbitrary barriers no one can do anything about (the Bad Way) and by creating challenges which can be defeated through skill (the Good Way). In terms of general difficulty in PoE, desync is an example of the Bad Way, while the Nemesis mods (in general) are an example of the Good Way (or at least an attempt at it). In trading, the key skill is item evaluation, that is, knowing how much an item is worth. Therefore, the correct components of the game to attack are the components which make item evaluation easy; afterwards, item evaluation should be more difficult.

*snipped for length*

That's an opinion, Scrotie, which I will respect even if I disagree with.

And my opinion would be that making trading so difficult is a "Bad" barrier in a game that is supposed to be, by spirit and by promotion, an ARPG, and not a stock market simulator.

Making trading hard, is akin to designing a new system where you must farm for digital examples of real-life food, know what's edible and not, in order to feed your character and keep him alive, otherwise said character loses levels each time he gets hungry.

See what I mean? Yeah, food farming will then become a skill in terms of knowing what's actually edible in real life or not, but is that important and necessary in a loot-farming ARPG?

POE is supposed to be an ARPG, not a stock market simulator or a virtual pet sim. It currently functions as some warped stock market simulator alongside its admittedly good ARPG aspect, but it shouldn't be.

Of course, that's my opinion as much as anyone else. The "facts" will ultimately be whatever GGG does.

It's not about drop rates. They could cut all drop rates by a factor of ten. It's the where the bar is set on the difficulty of the game. You need items that are rare to complete the game... too rare for a player to find on their own. That's the dynamic that people are frustrated by. It's that design philosophy that is being targeted here. You're asking for better drop rates when really you should be asking them to lower the bar on what they think a player should have in order to progress. You want them to make the game easier.

Trading is one route to make the game easier... and it's the easy way to do it.

Grinding is another and takes far more time and can be truly frustrating.

Complaining on the game forums to get the designers to change their game works too, at least if you look at how other games from the genre have reacted to it.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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gr00grams wrote:

3. Trading is not pleasurable because it's trading, not because of it's difficulty. I don't want to trade my progression, I want to fight monsters for it.

That's not very open-minded. You're essentially saying it cannot be fun, which isn't something I'm willing to accept.

Well, you just hit the nail.

Gr00g was talking from a personal perspective. Trading is not pleasurable for him. That was quite clear, to me, how did you interpret it different, Scrotie?

Many of us don't like trade, don't want to buy gear, progress, challenge, content or crafting. We just want to be able to do so through our own brevity, stupidity and ability and get knocked back down if we punch above our weight.

Try to imagine, if you can, that when self found (more so solo, too) it is actually possible to punch above ones weight, for thousands of hours (should the content be accessible). A difficult concept in this model of - buy - party - faceroll - get board.

But, while we don't like trading, WE UNDERSTAND THAT SOME DO. See? Empathy, open minded.

Now, let's look at what the lead developer has to say. He, has on several occasions, come out and said things cannot be fun, period, will not entertain. There is no empathy at all, there is no open mindedness. There is this stubborn pig headedness that what he likes and only what he likes can ever be fun, for anyone.

The problem is that you can't make a game challenging for people who trade and challenging for people who don't trade without making everything homogeneous and therefor uninteresting. We're playing the game we've got. It's seemingly impossible for some, and down right easy for others. Must be a bear to try to design for.

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Shagsbeard wrote:

It's not about drop rates. They could cut all drop rates by a factor of ten. It's the where the bar is set on the difficulty of the game. You need items that are rare to complete the game... too rare for a player to find on their own.

No you don't.

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That's the dynamic that people are frustrated by. It's that design philosophy that is being targeted here. You're asking for better drop rates when really you should be asking them to lower the bar on what they think a player should have in order to progress. You want them to make the game easier.

Trading is one route to make the game easier... and it's the easy way to do it.

Grinding is another and takes far more time and can be truly frustrating.

I agree that trading trivialises the game, I agree that gearing without trading is grinding.
Now, grinding taking time isn't bad. I call that slow progression, I call that content, I call that longevity, I call that aRPG.

The reason it can be frustrating in PoE, is because suddenly the model changes. Act content is good progression. Through N/C/M 1/2/3, one can punch as high as one dares or as low as one wants to feel safe. The higher one punches, the better gear one 'can' get rolling on bases.
That works, that's good.

Come maps, now you cannot punch anywhere above what you can buy access to, you cannot reasonably sustain or climb without trading. If you are trading, you are trivialising what could be a challenge. Now, you can grind on available content, that content becomes faceroll. But you are still locked out of the higher content. What's the real kicker, even faceroll farming the available content, in time, will outgear one for the content which is locked away behind trading, without even seeing it.

Grinding orbs to roll a high map (without trading), is done in low maps/merciless. I estimated at a ratio of around 50:1, although the maze mod changes did appear to lower that, it soon shot back up again for whatever 'drop tuning' reasons.

50 faceroll : 1 could have been challenging had I not outgeared it before seeing it.

So, frustrating, yeah, but maybe not for the reasons you thought?

Trading should be a niche minigame, not the BiS way to do basically everything there is to do:

- gear yourself up
- access content
- level up
- be competitive on the ladder

Else make if fkin clear on the first page that this is a trade simulator, not an ARPG.

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gr00grams wrote:

Trading is not pleasurable because it's trading, not because of it's difficulty. I don't want to trade my progression, I want to fight monsters for it. I try to do this, but the 'orb-wall' is what blocks you. You run Dominus 10 billion times, you'll get some top end drops, but making them usable is a whole other level. This is at a point in the character when you need certain slot colors, a minimum link chain, etc, you can't just find a drop and use it. You need... orbs.

I give you that. That is why the game always should be balanced around 4-link items. All the rest is a luxury. Then you dont have to hustle from one item to another to keep your skill combo.

The game should be viable with mediocre game.

On a sidenote: why are you lvling a lvl 86+ when there clearly is no content out there yet?

+1

had someone give me noob condescending speech about a perandus ring. absolutely convinced it was worth 15 chaos.

bought one with better rolls for 8 chaos two minutes later.

same thing happened to quality gem. I get this you're such a noob speech about how it's 1 chaos per % quality, blah blah blah

bought my 14% quality gem for 2 chaos (and yes it was a good skill gem) a day later.

ALL quality gems are worth the same ? of course not. trying selling a 14% smoke mine. now a 14% multistrike. let me know how hat goes.

it's not what you think it's worth...