My problem with poe.xyz and why do I think it fucked the economy

All of the problems described by the thread starter are thing caused by players, not poe.xyz.


Poe.XYZ brings buyers and sellers together in a better way than in game menchanics currently allow. Every single economic model ever created suggests bringing buyers and sellers together lowers prices overall because it encourages more competitive pricing.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

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morbo wrote:

Transparency + ease of use = competition ==> low & stable prices

Obfuscated trading + difficulty to use = monopoly & cartel manipulation ==> high prices

Um, no. Sorry to burst your bubble, but what really controls the average price is supply, to include both quantity and whether a small number of buyers have a disproportionate marketshare. A very common item is going to be cheap, even in a system with low visibility which is difficult to use (unless a group manages to corner the market, but with common items this is very difficult); a very rare item is going to be expensive, even in a system such as the one we have now (especially if a single entity has considerable marketshare).

The concepts you're referring to do not affect the mean, they affect the deviation from the mean. With high visibility and high ease of use, prices are uniform; with low visibility and more difficult valuation, the minimum price is lower and the maximum price is higher.

Eternal orb says "hi"

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JohnNamikaze wrote:

It is tough to make it unnecessary unless GGG adds an Auction House to the game

Yep. Let's hope it's implemented properly; it would be a shame if the cure was worse than the disease.

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morbo wrote:

Making trading more difficult would not make the other gameplay options (looting & crafitng) any better.

In an absolute sense, this is true; it a comparative sense, it is not. The absolute sense is enough to lead to my rejection of complete trade prohibitions, but I'm not sure if it's enough to lead to a rejection of trade becoming more difficult (yet still possible). For example, farming with current trading leads one to look at great drop and see a specific number of Exalts; farming with no trading whatsoever leads one to see some number of Alterations; farming with more variant trading leads one to look at a great drop and know it's worth some number of Exalts, but be unsure precisely how many. Of these three options, clearly the last is most conducive to a fun farming experience.

Nevertheless, the absolute utility of crafting/farming is a concern, and a good point on your part... in particular, the relative value of currency for highest-level crafting versus all other levels of crafting.

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TheAnuhart wrote:

Eternal orb says "hi"

Fuck Eternal Orb. Here's what I had to say about it on June 1, 2013, after its announcement but 4 days before it was added to the game:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Spoiler

This currency only does three things:

• Undo Regal Orb.
• Undo Divine Orb.
• Undo Chromatics when performing mirror service.*
• Undo Exalted Orb.

Because of the last, the first will never be used, and the second and third only rarely.

This will also never be used for sockets; Jewelers and Fusings all undo themselves, and anyone with half a brain crafts on an non-essential item, not the one they're currently using. Chaos undoes itself too.

So yeah. Exalted Orbs will be better now, and therefore worth even more than they were before. Just what we need... -__-

My principle regret is assuming Courageous' Schematic was too absurd a suggestion to be worth comment, and thus not decrying it when I had the chance.

* This is the only use for this currency that is actually interesting. I would have just made white (or similar) sockets available instead, but only very rarely; thus the challenge for mirror service people would be dumping thousands of Chromatics into getting multiple white sockets, or some similar nonsense.

I think I was pretty spot-on, don't you? Oh, and after all that work getting his baby into the game, Courageous left and was never heard from again.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Fuck Eternal Orb <...> I think I was pretty spot-on, don't you?

It was indeed one of the dumbest things GGG ever did.
But, regardless, it is an example of something that is extremely rare, extremely (uniquely) powerful and also in high demand; being very, VERY cheap.

You do know these are somewhere in the region of 20-50 times rarer than an exalted orb?

"

Oh, and after all that work getting his baby into the game, Courageous left and was never heard from again.

Well he's not alone there, by far. When this game's population diminishes down to the niche few but then carries on diminishing at an accelerated rate, the penny might finally drop that the model cannot work. Why? Because the niche require several times more non-niche to feed them.

GG

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TheAnuhart wrote:

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

Fuck Eternal Orb <...> I think I was pretty spot-on, don't you?

It was indeed one of the dumbest things GGG ever did.
But, regardless, it is an example of something that is extremely rare, extremely (uniquely) powerful and also in high demand; being very, VERY cheap.

You do know these are somewhere in the region of 20-50 times rarer than an exalted orb?

"

Oh, and after all that work getting his baby into the game, Courageous left and was never heard from again.

Well he's not alone there, by far. When this game's population diminishes down to the niche few but then carries on diminishing at an accelerated rate, the penny might finally drop that the model cannot work. Why? Because the niche require several times more non-niche to feed them.

GG

Hey that sounds like a Vaal Pyramid Trading Scheme to me!!

:D

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JohnNamikaze wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Yep. Let's hope it's implemented properly; it would be a shame if the cure was worse than the disease.

From your point of view, it is a disease. From my point of view, it is ease of access. Of course, I do not want an auction house, but at the same time, I do not want to finding a specific item nearly an improbable task.

The point of a loot finder is to find the loot, the point of rare items is that they are difficult to find.

Just how difficult is completely in the hands of the developers (well, and getting off ones ass and killing beasties). That some items are improbable to find, yet are expected to be acquired is directly tied to trading design.

I'm always astonished that people worship at the altar of easy trade, because it would be almost impossible to acquire item X without. When it is the presence of free global trade that both make that item as rare as it is and give the sense of entitlement to it, asap.

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rampagingrabbit wrote:

Hey that sounds like a Vaal Pyramid Trading Scheme to me!!

:D

The game always was a pyramid time bomb.
But bizarrely and conversely, it is the schemer that will be left without in this case.

@JohnNamikaze: Perhaps I should elaborate on why trading even exists in ARPGs.

Pretend for a moment all players used the same core itemization (in good ARPGs this isn't true, but bear with me a moment). Then, consider the player at the bottom of the ladder; there is a vast supply of hand-me-down items available to him, easily acquired cheaply, which allow him to progress far faster than if he were playing self-found — providing he can find something those higher-level players actually want. Now, consider the player at the very top of the ladder; there are no hand-me-downs available to him whatsoever, and the only thing benefit he can hope for from trading is additional access to consumables — in the case of PoE, maps and crafting materials — which cannot be handed back down (at least not directly). Thus these consumables naturally become the coin of the realm — they are the objects which the higher-level players want.

The purpose of the economy from a game mechanics perspective, therefore, is to make upgrades readily available to players who are positionally far behind other players. Therefore: from a game design perspective, the function of a trading system is to allow players who are behind to catch up. This is the answer to the question "why even have a 'market simulator' in a hack & slash game?" It is a deliberate, calculated form of circumventing the usual progression in order to make the game more egalitarian.

Take a moment and let that sink in, because it's the primary function of a trading system in an ARPG. It's essentially a cheat code which favors those at the bottom of the pyramid far more than those at the top.

However, as the state of progression (aka the "economy") gets older and older, the amount by which the furthest-behind players trails longer and longer. Even though older economies undergo inflation, it is still very likely a player would have to spend a significant amount of time trading to catch up with those ahead of him. Which means: the further behind a player is, and the more valuable currency that players has, the more time he's likely to spend trading. For many players who acquire more wealth in currency early and less in the form of gear, this can mean a huge amount of time spent trading if one seeks the optimum progression rate.

So far, this is in accordance with the primary function of a trade system as described earlier. But it does raise some complications. Since trading circumvents the usual progression and they're spending so much time trading, this means the trade system is now Path of Exile to them.

So there are three main ways to deal with this:
1. Stay behind in the 20th century, using 20th century trade features. This is what GGG is currently doing, and it's the path of neglect, non-innovation, and decay. If you fail to perform at this level, a third party will perform for you.
2. Try to design a trade system as one would design a business web application — that is, go for efficiency and ease-of-use. This is what Blizzard did with Diablo 3. Their epic failure shows us design principles which make lots of sense when it comes to real-life transaction are shitty principles in the world of ARPGs. It's also what xyz.is is trying to do with PoE.
3. Treat the trade system as a mini-game, applying game design principles to it. This is the only option which is any good. After all, if some of your players are going to be playing a 'market simulator' for hours (or more), how about making it a damn fun market simulator? Note that "easy" and "fun" aren't the same concept, and often do not appear simultaneously.

Indeed, "effortless" and "fun" are mutually exclusive in computer gaming (although not necessarily in video; I'm referring to interactive components here). Here's proof.

The question we should be asking ourselves is: what can we do to trading in PoE fun as a stand-alone game? It's a broad subject, and I'm sure I haven't thought of everything. However, I think one of the keys to game such as this is the principle of limited information; after all, it's one of the core mechanics which makes poker so interesting.

And, to bring it back to the original thread topic, this is exactly the mechanic which xyz.is marginalizes, giving players nearly complete information in real time.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

@JohnNamikaze: Perhaps I should elaborate on why trading even exists in ARPGs.

Pretend for a moment all players used the same core itemization (in good ARPGs this isn't true, but bear with me a moment). Then, consider the player at the bottom of the ladder; there is a vast supply of hand-me-down items available to him, easily acquired cheaply, which allow him to progress far faster than if he were playing self-found — providing he can find something those higher-level players actually want. Now, consider the player at the very top of the ladder; there are no hand-me-downs available to him whatsoever, and the only thing benefit he can hope for from trading is additional access to consumables — in the case of PoE, maps and crafting materials — which cannot be handed back down (at least not directly). Thus these consumables naturally become the coin of the realm — they are the objects which the higher-level players want.

The purpose of the economy from a game mechanics perspective, therefore, is to make upgrades readily available to players who are positionally far behind other players. Therefore: from a game design perspective, the function of a trading system is to allow players who are behind to catch up. This is the answer to the question "why even have a 'market simulator' in a hack & slash game?" It is a deliberate, calculated form of circumventing the usual progression in order to make the game more egalitarian.

Take a moment and let that sink in, because it's the primary function of a trading system in an ARPG. It's essentially a cheat code which favors those at the bottom of the pyramid far more than those at the top.

However, as the state of progression (aka the "economy") gets older and older, the amount by which the furthest-behind players trails longer and longer. Even though older economies undergo inflation, it is still very likely a player would have to spend a significant amount of time trading to catch up with those ahead of him. Which means: the further behind a player is, and the more valuable currency that players has, the more time he's likely to spend trading. For many players who acquire more wealth in currency early and less in the form of gear, this can mean a huge amount of time spent trading if one seeks the optimum progression rate.

So far, this is in accordance with the primary function of a trade system as described earlier. But it does raise some complications. Since trading circumvents the usual progression and they're spending so much time trading, this means the trade system is now Path of Exile to them.

So there are three main ways to deal with this:
1. Stay behind in the 20th century, using 20th century trade features. This is what GGG is currently doing, and it's the path of neglect, non-innovation, and decay. If you fail to perform at this level, a third party will perform for you.
2. Try to design a trade system as one would design a business web application — that is, go for efficiency and ease-of-use. This is what Blizzard did with Diablo 3. Their epic failure shows us design principles which make lots of sense when it comes to real-life transaction are shitty principles in the world of ARPGs. It's also what xyz.is is trying to do with PoE.
3. Treat the trade system as a mini-game, applying game design principles to it. This is the only option which is any good. After all, if some of your players are going to be playing a 'market simulator' for hours (or more), how about making it a damn fun market simulator? Note that "easy" and "fun" aren't the same concept, and often do not appear simultaneously.

Indeed, "effortless" and "fun" are mutually exclusive in computer gaming (although not necessarily in video; I'm referring to interactive components here). Here's proof.

The question we should be asking ourselves is: what can we do to trading in PoE fun as a stand-alone game? It's a broad subject, and I'm sure I haven't thought of everything. However, I think one of the keys to game such as this is the principle of limited information; after all, it's one of the core mechanics which makes poker so interesting.

And, to bring it back to the original thread topic, this is exactly the mechanic which xyz.is marginalizes, giving players nearly complete information in real time.

Yes Scrotie! I have missed your posts.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

Indeed, "effortless" and "fun" are mutually exclusive in computer gaming (although not necessarily in video; I'm referring to interactive components here). Here's proof.

The question we should be asking ourselves is: what can we do to trading in PoE fun as a stand-alone game? It's a broad subject, and I'm sure I haven't thought of everything. However, I think one of the keys to game such as this is the principle of limited information; after all, it's one of the core mechanics which makes poker so interesting.

And, to bring it back to the original thread topic, this is exactly the mechanic which xyz.is marginalizes, giving players nearly complete information in real time.

Here's my counter;

I've played ARPG's Since Diablo.
Played everyone that's been released, because I love them.
Diablo 1+ 2, Titan Quest, Dungeon Siege 1 + 2 + 3, Sacred 1 + 2, Divinity, Torchlight, Hellgate, Everyone of them. Even the ones back on old systems like the Baldur's Gates, etc. I love Isometric games too, the old Fallouts, on and on and on.

Here's my take;

I don't want a 'trading mini-game'. Really. The end.

I want to get loot from drops.
I want to USE the loot I get. I don't want to watch myself piss away 200+ orbs trying to make some gloves have 3 blue sockets and 1 red. Seriously.

I am a 'hardcore' type from time investment, so it's not that I don't spend time in-game. I am probably in the 'extreme-hardcore' from time investment even.

I spend probably more than most in honesty. I STILL do not want trade.

I watched an interview with the leader of GGG, he says drops will make players bored.

No.

Drops facilitate more builds.

For example;

In Titan Quest I had over 12 characters level 60+. In Sacred, even more. I get good drops, I want to play more, and make more builds. I find myself still wanting to play these older games even, there are still builds and things I'd like to have fun with, and I CAN. I recently re-installed Titan Quest, it was on sale on Steam, I've been playing it over this to be perfectly honest. I found myself running Dominus non-stop, grinding orbs, only to lose them all trying to do anything craft wise, and the grinding-time to make an amount that someone wants for one item is absurd. 240 alterations are 25 fuse. 50 fuse is one exalted (Domination). Some people want 10+ exalted for one item. I want to make more builds, but..

That doesn't happen here.

In that same interview, I saw the leader of GGG again mention 'player retention'.
GGG, if you're reading this, this is where people drop off. I can't make other builds, because I can't facilitate them, because you limit the good gear so much based on trading.

I am extremely reluctant to make 'more builds' here, because I've made one to 85, almost 86, and the time investment (which I have no problem with) almost all goes into grinding ORBS, to make CURRENCY, to TRADE. Understand that point.

I don't grind to find a good item, or improve my character, I grind to make orbs to either lose them trying to improve, or lose them trying to by items to facilitate characters.

I wouldn't have such a problem with this, if it wasn't also nigh-impossible to trade without trading. Getting the currency required that people want for items cannot be done with drops or grinding. This is another serious problem.

How does all this lead to poe.xyz?

The whole thing is bust. That's how it leads to it.
poe.xyz lets me spend as little time as possible on trading. Trading should not be the only way you advance your character. With this site, at the VERY LEAST I can sell items off without actively trading; I made a thread, sometimes people send me a tell wanting something. That is the extent of my willing to trade, and it permits this.

I can also search for an item and if it's not ridiculous, get it, and be done. I shouldn't have to. I should especially with the time I invest, be able to progress myself, like every other action rpg. This is the key where player retention will fall off completely, once the 'magic' is over from the initial game. GGG if you were wondering where you lose players in the end game, this is it right here. Your system is overly restrictive, and making new builds is the fun. Your game limits this, and it limits it hard. This is where you lose player retention. I am even pretty shocked that myself, one of the most 'hardcore' time-investment wise gamers I know, am honestly getting pretty tired of it, and I never tire.

I think rather than making trade be 'fun' they should make the core ARPG element fun, like when you first pick this game up. It's awesome, but once the curtains are pulled back, it really deteriorates.

They don't even have enough areas to farm! There's Piety, Dominus, and maps, kinda.

Even a linear progress like Titan Quest was, each monster type had named-rares, or certain monster drops etc, that made players run other areas. Sacred, you could go anywhere at anytime, and level and find drops, it scaled, and drops where great. Here, you can run three things, Piety, Dominus, or maps. It gets very, very, very stale. 90% of the game becomes useless because there is no reason to run anything else. The drop rates being so low only compounds this. You have near zero shot getting an item you want, and that is farming the 'best' things even.

Back to poe.xyz, at least it gives me SOMETHING. I think that's the point I wanted to make, after all this rambling. It's quick and efficient, which should be the extent of it. The focus should be on making builds, and finding loot, and I applaud anything like poe.xyz that 'marginalizes' something that should NOT be the focus of the game. It should be about making the best builds, not 'affording the best builds', etc.

What I'm trying to say, is anything like poe.xyz that removes, retards, rebukes, etc the death-grip strangling this game that is trading, I am all about it.