My problem with poe.xyz and why do I think it fucked the economy

i rly like when i put BO's on my gear and 1 week later everyone sets their BO prices at the same lvl :)

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gr00grams wrote:

I don't want a 'trading mini-game'. Really. The end.

Spoiler

I want to get loot from drops.
I want to USE the loot I get. I don't want to watch myself piss away 200+ orbs trying to make some gloves have 3 blue sockets and 1 red. Seriously.

I am a 'hardcore' type from time investment, so it's not that I don't spend time in-game. I am probably in the 'extreme-hardcore' from time investment even.

I spend probably more than most in honesty. I STILL do not want trade.

You do understand, when I said trading should be a fun mini-game, I didn't mean to say monster-slaying and farming shouldn't be fun main games? This isn't necessarily a zero-sum deal where the improvement of one is at the expense of another.

Well, I guess in terms of developer dollars allocated, perhaps. But also consider the absolute stone-age tech we're dealing with in terms of a trade system; it's more than due for some kind of love. What I'm saying is: this love should be towards making trading fun, as a game unto its own... not easier, as a soulless tool to make an currently unpleasant activity shorter in duration.

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gr00grams wrote:

I watched an interview with the leader of GGG, he says drops will make players bored.

No.

Drops facilitate more builds.

Spoiler

For example;

In Titan Quest I had over 12 characters level 60+. In Sacred, even more. I get good drops, I want to play more, and make more builds.

That doesn't happen here.

In that same interview, I saw the leader of GGG again mention 'player retention'.
GGG, if you're reading this, this is where people drop off. I can't make other builds, because I can't facilitate them, because you limit the good gear so much based on trading.

Spoiler

I am extremely reluctant to make 'more builds' here, because I've made one to 85, almost 86, and the time investment (which I have no problem with) almost all goes into grinding ORBS, to make CURRENCY, to TRADE. Understand that point.

I don't grind to find a good item, or improve my character, I grind to make orbs to either lose them trying to improve, or lose them trying to by items to facilitate characters.

[snip]
Back to poe.xyz, at least it gives me SOMETHING. I think that's the point I wanted to make, after all this rambling. It's quick and efficient, which should be the extent of it.

I don't think they limit drops because of trading, I think they limit drops because of content development concerns; the quicker you strip one area of resources, the sooner you need to proceed to another area, which begs to question: how long before you run out of areas? (Thank you, Agent Smith.)

That said, it's not really about progression, nor about time; it's about grinding. Compaining about ARPG progression taking too long is a lot like complaining about sex taking too long; if you're saying it, it says something about the amount of fun you're having during the experience. If you've grown bored and all you're waiting on is the money shot, well, obviously there was some failure along the way. Perhaps hers, perhaps his, hard to say. But I'm not trying to point fingers, because I'm trying to find the solution. What can we do to prolong the enjoyment of the experience, in order to ensure it's about more than getting yours as quickly as possible? Because any experience which is work — in the derogatory meaning of the word — is not play.

You might want something quick and efficient; I say that's not how lovers talk. When you start hearing stuff like that, the joy is already gone.

If poe.xyz didn't exist, I would probably not be playing this game anymore.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

I don't think they limit drops because of trading, I think they limit drops because of content development concerns; the quicker you strip one area of resources, the sooner you need to proceed to another area, which begs to question: how long before you run out of areas? (Thank you, Agent Smith.)

That said, it's not really about progression, nor about time; it's about grinding. Compaining about ARPG progression taking too long is a lot like complaining about sex taking too long; if you're saying it, it says something about the amount of fun you're having during the experience. If you've grown bored and all you're waiting on is the money shot, well, obviously there was some failure along the way. Perhaps hers, perhaps his, hard to say. But I'm not trying to point fingers, because I'm trying to find the solution. What can we do to prolong the enjoyment of the experience, in order to ensure it's about more than getting yours as quickly as possible? Because any experience which is work — in the derogatory meaning of the word — is not play.

You might want something quick and efficient; I say that's not how lovers talk. When you start hearing stuff like that, the joy is already gone.

I can answer somethings directly;

1. In an interview, it was stated drops would be lowered if trading was easy.

2. Drops are low because of trading. Up until you beat merciless, you never need to farm. I know this, because I've done it. You do not need to ever grind in this game until you hit maps.

3. You need to grind for maps, not for items to be 'strong enough', no, no, you need to for currency, or else you get what happened to me; you run out of maps.

4. I am not complaining about time spent grinding. I LOVE to grind. Trust me on that. I love long progression, but here's the thing, once the veil is pulled back, you see it very clearly....

Drops, drops happen. But there's more to it. It's all about ORBS, and thus, trading.

Take for instance, Shavronnes Wrappings.
Say you get this uber low drop. Great!

But now, guess what? You need to farm minimum 1000+ fusing ORBS to have a shot at having a 5/6L item.

Not matter what, you have to grind ORBS. Or trade, and buy ORBS. Something. You gotta do 10 billion Dominus runs, not for a good drop, for rares to turn into ORBS.

This is what's hidden from the player initially.
Drops? I get drops. Still can't use shit. That's the vision of the tenth eye right there.

I ran Dominus 100000000 times, I got rewarded as per normal ARPG with a couple (like 1-3) rare items, but there is a whole world beyond what you see called ORBS.

Take a boss run from another ARPG; You take out boss, get a cool item, put it on, has a buncha stats, that's cool, it has some stuff that boosts your powers, has a cool name, a nice unique look, awesome.

Here? HERE? I got a goddamn top end item that sits in my stash waiting for me to farm 10 billion ORBS to try and make it usable.

That's where the bloody magic wears off! Even making an alt, there's another 10 billion orbs! It's not getting the base unique, or decent rare that's a problem. It's the mandatory Orb grind. The secret world.




Back to trading though;


Your analogy fails because the first point, an activity both parties wish to engage in for pleasure, is not true.

There is no pleasure in trading,and thus anything that makes it as simple as possible is what I will gravitate to.

It is simply a means to and end.

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gr00grams wrote:

1. In an interview, it was stated drops would be lowered if trading was easy.

Link?

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gr00grams wrote:

4. I am not complaining about time spent grinding. I LOVE to grind. Trust me on that. I love long progression, but here's the thing, once the veil is pulled back, you see it very clearly....

Drops, drops happen. But there's more to it. It's all about ORBS, and thus, trading.

Take for instance, Shavronnes Wrappings.
Say you get this uber low drop. Great!

But now, guess what? You need to farm minimum 1000+ fusing ORBS to have a shot at having a 5/6L item.

Not matter what, you have to grind ORBS. Or trade, and buy ORBS. Something. You gotta do 10 billion Dominus runs, not for a good drop, for rares to turn into ORBS.

This is what's hidden from the player initially.

Spoiler

Drops? I get drops. Still can't use shit. That's the vision of the tenth eye right there.

I ran Dominus 100000000 times, I got rewarded as per normal ARPG with a couple (like 1-3) rare items, but there is a whole world beyond what you see called ORBS.

Take a boss run from another ARPG; You take out boss, get a cool item, put it on, has a buncha stats, that's cool, it has some stuff that boosts your powers, has a cool name, a nice unique look, awesome.

Here? HERE?

I got a goddamn top end item that sits in my stash waiting for me to farm 10 billion ORBS to try and make it usable.

I've posted numerous times in support of an increased drop rate for orbs in exchange for a reduced drop rate for gear. However, I've never used the argument you present here; I was just pointing out that orbs have intrinsic value, while gear you can't use does not, therefore the ridiculous flood of decent gear you can't use is a huge push to sell; giving players the orbs straight-up, and less gear, would essentially perform the same function, but with some of the trading occurring automatically.

The Shav's thing is pretty damn clever, though. I could nitpick about the 1000+ orbs thing, I believe you've got a decent (but definitely not certain) chance at 6L with 700, while 5L would be more like 125, but like I said, nitpick; it's still a huge amount of extra wealth to accrue. Mind if I steal your argument if the need arises later?

"

gr00grams wrote:

There is no pleasure in trading,and thus anything that makes it as simple as possible is what I will gravitate to.

The root problem is the amount of pleasure in trading, and should be attacked directly. I can accept the whole "simple as possible" thing as a temporary solution, but not as a permanent one.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

"

gr00grams wrote:

1. In an interview, it was stated drops would be lowered if trading was easy.

Link?

"

gr00grams wrote:

4. I am not complaining about time spent grinding. I LOVE to grind. Trust me on that. I love long progression, but here's the thing, once the veil is pulled back, you see it very clearly....

Drops, drops happen. But there's more to it. It's all about ORBS, and thus, trading.

Take for instance, Shavronnes Wrappings.
Say you get this uber low drop. Great!

But now, guess what? You need to farm minimum 1000+ fusing ORBS to have a shot at having a 5/6L item.

Not matter what, you have to grind ORBS. Or trade, and buy ORBS. Something. You gotta do 10 billion Dominus runs, not for a good drop, for rares to turn into ORBS.

This is what's hidden from the player initially.

Spoiler

Drops? I get drops. Still can't use shit. That's the vision of the tenth eye right there.

I ran Dominus 100000000 times, I got rewarded as per normal ARPG with a couple (like 1-3) rare items, but there is a whole world beyond what you see called ORBS.

Take a boss run from another ARPG; You take out boss, get a cool item, put it on, has a buncha stats, that's cool, it has some stuff that boosts your powers, has a cool name, a nice unique look, awesome.

Here? HERE?

I got a goddamn top end item that sits in my stash waiting for me to farm 10 billion ORBS to try and make it usable.

I've posted numerous times in support of an increased drop rate for orbs in exchange for a reduced drop rate for gear. However, I've never used the argument you present here; I was just pointing out that orbs have intrinsic value, while gear you can't use does not, therefore the ridiculous flood of decent gear you can't use is a huge push to sell; giving players the orbs straight-up, and less gear, would essentially perform the same function, but with some of the trading occurring automatically.

The Shav's thing is pretty damn clever, though. I could nitpick about the 1000+ orbs thing, I believe you've got a decent (but definitely not certain) chance with 700, but like I said, nitpick; it's still a huge amount of extra wealth to accrue. Mind if I steal your argument if the need arises later?

"

gr00grams wrote:

There is no pleasure in trading,and thus anything that makes it as simple as possible is what I will gravitate to.

The root problem is the amount of pleasure in trading, and should be attacked directly. I can accept the whole "simple as possible" thing as a temporary solution, but not as a permanent one.

1. It's in the Athene interview.

2. 40 alterations are 5 fuse. That is 5600 alterations for 700 fuse. With about 100 IIR, you get around 6 alteration per Dominus run. Trust me, this is my hell right now.

3. Trading is not pleasurable because it's trading, not because of it's difficulty. I don't want to trade my progression, I want to fight monsters for it. I try to do this, but the 'orb-wall' is what blocks you. You run Dominus 10 billion times, you'll get some top end drops, but making them usable is a whole other level. This is at a point in the character when you need certain slot colors, a minimum link chain, etc, you can't just find a drop and use it. You need... orbs.

"

gr00grams wrote:

3. Trading is not pleasurable because it's trading, not because of it's difficulty. I don't want to trade my progression, I want to fight monsters for it.

That's not very open-minded. You're essentially saying it cannot be fun, which isn't something I'm willing to accept.

Difficulty isn't the only factor in fun; I think making trading more skill-intensive could help, but that's a means, not an end.

"

gr00grams wrote:

the 'orb-wall' is what blocks you. You run Dominus 10 billion times, you'll get some top end drops, but making them usable is a whole other level. This is at a point in the character when you need certain slot colors, a minimum link chain, etc, you can't just find a drop and use it. You need... orbs.

Didn't I cover this in my last post? Game should drop more orbs, less gear, problem solved.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

That's not very open-minded. You're essentially saying it cannot be fun, which isn't something I'm willing to accept.

It's not about open-minded. It's an act engaged in only out of necessity.
Trading is like, going for groceries. I have to eat, so I buy food.

It is a means to an end, because the drops aren't plentiful enough to make without.
I need item 'xyz', and my odds are essentially zero, so I trade.

I have never traded because I wanted to.
Trading is an activity you partake in out of necessity, not desire.

"

ScrotieMcB wrote:

Didn't I cover this in my last post? Game should drop more orbs, less gear, problem solved.

The drop on 'good' gear is already low enough, too low even.
I found a top end item, but it wasn't for my build. Odds you find any gear for you are slim to none, because trading.

Not everything in the game needs to be so punishing, truly.

You can't expect a significant buff to orb drop rates without paying some kind of cost in gear drop rates. A minor increase in orb drops, perhaps, but nothing on the level we both know is justified.

Scrotie, you're mostly right in everything you say, except one aspect: a transparent trading system DOES lower average prices. Only "good" thing about obfuscated is that there will sometimes be vastly underpriced good items, but this is yet another lottery, the "catch-a-noob-selling-godly-items" lottery.