Scrotie wants YOU to help prevent PoE's economy from becoming more like D3's

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CanHasPants wrote:

Spoiler

In my experience, buyouts do not save time as many people like to claim: "I like buyouts because I can quickly see a price, conduct my trade, and get back to the game."

Way back when "b/o" didn't exist in PoE's collective vocabulary, I would offer and receive offers for item-to-item trades just as often as I would for orbs. Back then, I could trade my triple damage roll ring for somebody else's dual resist ring with life and mana. Currently, my ring might be worth 1 ex (just assume) while theirs only 5 chaos. Currently. Then, that was largely irrelevant, because the rings had inherent value beyond their value to "the bank." Nobody was scammed, we both benefited, because we both received something we needed at the cost of something we didn't need.

Now, currently, put yourself on the other end of that bargain. I could indeed use that ring of yours, but it's the most valuable thing in your possession. Why barter for yours when I can sell mine to somebody else, buy yours, and still make profit. I benefit, while you still do not have enough to purchase that ring you need. All thanks to the price tagged gold standard economy. Tough luck, back to grinding, maybe next time you'll find a rare worth more than 5 chaos, otherwise you'll be doing it quite a few more times.

That's the compromise.

If you are willing to sit in trade for 10 hours spamming WTT My ring with XXX stats for a ring with XXX, XXX, XXX, and XXX! More power to you, I have limited playing time and I'm certainly not gonna waste it doing that sort of nonsense.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

I don't blame you for this. GGG should have had such a system up... months ago, really. But that doesn't mean we need to make the third-party option more powerful.

In any case, it's obviously what the majority wants here: the wrong thing. You'd think that after D3's debacle with auction houses people would learn from their mistakes, but instead they're looking for a reasons why searchable buyouts are still okay, this time it's different. Well of course there are differences, but the core principle remains the same. This isn't good for the health of the game — regardless of how popular it is.

Thank god GGG isn't a democracy.

I never will understand those who believe that we serve the economy and not the other way around. Can't even escape it playing video games.

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reboticon wrote:

"

CanHasPants wrote:

Spoiler

In my experience, buyouts do not save time as many people like to claim: "I like buyouts because I can quickly see a price, conduct my trade, and get back to the game."

Way back when "b/o" didn't exist in PoE's collective vocabulary, I would offer and receive offers for item-to-item trades just as often as I would for orbs. Back then, I could trade my triple damage roll ring for somebody else's dual resist ring with life and mana. Currently, my ring might be worth 1 ex (just assume) while theirs only 5 chaos. Currently. Then, that was largely irrelevant, because the rings had inherent value beyond their value to "the bank." Nobody was scammed, we both benefited, because we both received something we needed at the cost of something we didn't need.

Now, currently, put yourself on the other end of that bargain. I could indeed use that ring of yours, but it's the most valuable thing in your possession. Why barter for yours when I can sell mine to somebody else, buy yours, and still make profit. I benefit, while you still do not have enough to purchase that ring you need. All thanks to the price tagged gold standard economy. Tough luck, back to grinding, maybe next time you'll find a rare worth more than 5 chaos, otherwise you'll be doing it quite a few more times.

That's the compromise.

If you are willing to sit in trade for 10 hours spamming WTT My ring with XXX stats for a ring with XXX, XXX, XXX, and XXX! More power to you, I have limited playing time and I'm certainly not gonna waste it doing that sort of nonsense.

Actually, the real problem is that older (and old players especially) have everything they need. They have dmg ring and resistance ring and he wouldn't be able to trade item to item regardless of b/o or any kind of pricing. This is not tied to rings, I am just using his example.

like I said in previous post, no item sink = no healthy economy. You might be able to trade item to item in new leagues, and I don;t see a reason why you couldn't, for a while. There are also threads where people offer to trade some items for another items, so that still exits, just not indexed for convenient trade. So maybe instead of hatin' on indexers, people could kindly ask or even help them add that kind of feature (like a ~b/o tag but for instance ~wtt, something like <link item>~wtt<name item, write mods you want>.

I have to agree a bit. I do really miss the brief period during PoE when you could actually barter with items. Instead of it being all about currency and buyouts. Those were the good 'old days.

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reboticon wrote:

"

CanHasPants wrote:

Spoiler

In my experience, buyouts do not save time as many people like to claim: "I like buyouts because I can quickly see a price, conduct my trade, and get back to the game."

Way back when "b/o" didn't exist in PoE's collective vocabulary, I would offer and receive offers for item-to-item trades just as often as I would for orbs. Back then, I could trade my triple damage roll ring for somebody else's dual resist ring with life and mana. Currently, my ring might be worth 1 ex (just assume) while theirs only 5 chaos. Currently. Then, that was largely irrelevant, because the rings had inherent value beyond their value to "the bank." Nobody was scammed, we both benefited, because we both received something we needed at the cost of something we didn't need.

Now, currently, put yourself on the other end of that bargain. I could indeed use that ring of yours, but it's the most valuable thing in your possession. Why barter for yours when I can sell mine to somebody else, buy yours, and still make profit. I benefit, while you still do not have enough to purchase that ring you need. All thanks to the price tagged gold standard economy. Tough luck, back to grinding, maybe next time you'll find a rare worth more than 5 chaos, otherwise you'll be doing it quite a few more times.

That's the compromise.

If you are willing to sit in trade for 10 hours spamming WTT My ring with XXX stats for a ring with XXX, XXX, XXX, and XXX! More power to you, I have limited playing time and I'm certainly not gonna waste it doing that sort of nonsense.

I've never done that. If I saw something I liked, I'd whisper the seller, ask what they're looking for. Sometimes orbs, sometimes items. Whichever it was, I'd share my inventory with them, and we'd work something out. Only thing that took time (then) was +2 load screens due to lack of a trade function.

Edit: In regard to Barry's reply: If you have everything you need, why do you need to trade?

@Scrotie and @CanHasPants, I think you guys are looking at this backwards.
there is cause and consequence.
people hoard orbs instead of craft with them, because there is no crafting.
people buy what they need, because there is no self-finding.
you need to be filthy rich to craft gamble.
you need an Anuhart-amount of hours played to actually hope to find anything, unless dumb lady RNG luck just dropped it on you, for no damn reason.

when I go and try to buy an item I need for a build, you better believe I tried everything to avoid it. I tried farming the appropriate areas. I tried Chancing/Alching/Chaosing until I almost lost more than I can potentially gain. until I can't afford it anymore.
until I almost lost my damn mind.

cause and consequence.
the building frustration of Path Of Exile, makes Path Of Trade the best path.
the complete and utter lack of risk and reward, makes Path Of Trade the best path.

let's put the cards on the table: Path Of Exile is as bad as Diablo 3, if you are stupid enough to play it as a 100% ARPG.
yes I just said it.
but the things that actually made D3 worse overall, were dumbing everything down - thus disrespecting the hardcore players and old D1 and D2 fans like myself - and two words that appeared before "Auction House": "Real Money". Pay To Win.
the fact the horrible drop system actually had a purpose: send you running to the RMAH, credit card in hand.

PoE horrible drop system has no purpose. well it does: keep you playing. keep you thinking you are just a barrel away from dropping that Exalted Orb you never had, because you've seen people drop tons of those from barrels. just 1 Fusing away from that 6-link.
Gambler's Fallacy.
that makes it a hotbed for 3rd-party RMT.
bots having a fucking field day.
sites popping out faster than GGG can Whac-a-Mole them down.
because they fight the consequence, instead of eliminating the cause.

-------------------------------

you are worried about buy-outs? let me tell you something about buy-outs:

I'm a complete NOOB when it comes to trade.
I have absolutely no idea what an item I'm after, is worth on the "economy market".
if buyout didn't exist, EVERY SINGLE trade I would attempt will end up either me getting ripped-off, or flamed and personally attacked for "lowballing".
if trade indexers didn't exist well, I probably wouldn't be playing any more. I have no hidden masochistic desire to sort through the multiple-channel trade chat and trade forum car wreck.
to put up a "WTB" in game, and have all the hungry vultures swoop in.

is that the "economy" you guys are after? because it damn well looks like it.

I traded a bit when I was new to the game, all those months ago.
I did it because the game repeatedly smacked me in the face with gear-checks, and I had no idea how am I supposed to pass them, when my gear isn't getting upgraded in 10-15 levels of pure monster-hacking.
that was before I knew what b/o is. before I knew how to get an idea of "market price" when attempting barter-trade, so I could actually reply to a "offer" by the seller.
well I only met ONE honest trader back then, that I remember - and that was CliveHowlitzer. one.
that was back in February-March. now, it's probably even worse.

and frankly, I really would like seeing item levels. everywhere, including the forum.
I would like to see when someone is trying to scam me, by offering an item for full price, knowing full well that price is assuming X-socket capability, which his item lacks.
see he's a fucking dirt bag, when I ask him directly "can I 5-link this?" and he shamelessly replies "yes" while looking at that ilevel 16 piece of shit.

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Nephalim wrote:

wow...finding gear is impossible w/o sites like xyz and explorer.

Absolutely disagree with you. Without that site I wouldn't trade at all in this game, as I despise wasting time shopping. And considering that the fun build I'm currently playing required me to buy several uniques and several skill gems that I likely never would have found, there's a good chance I wouldn't be playing the game at all without it.

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Ludak021 wrote:

So I guess you avoid shopping in real life too because everything has a buyout and that's not trading. :)

Real life isn't a game. If someone was trying to make real-life shopping into a game, it would involve adding more obstacles to the process, without making it impossible.

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Ludak021 wrote:

And more thing: Your OP is about xyz trying to obtain itemlevel on forums, yet, all you talk about is buyout. Completely different things. What do you care if itemlevel is introduced to indexing? Buyout is already there.

You're right that they are different things. However, poe.xyz.is is a search engine which allows you to search for items (actually good) and also search for buyouts (bad for the game). We need a method of indexing which does not allow buyouts before GGG should release additional information to third-party sites. Until then — which may never happen — sites which allow you to search for buyouts should not be given more power. Which means: less information publicly available, because third-party functions are inevitable.

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Ludak021 wrote:

As for buyout itself, feel free not to use it. No one is forcing you to. Don't go around trying to spoil it for the others (wast majority!), it's not nice of you.

This is a lot like saying an OP skill shouldn't be nerfed, just because I could choose not to use it. Let me be absolutely clear about something: when the name of the game is min/maxing, an option which is obviously more powerful than all other options is not an option at all, it is a requirement. This is why overpowered "options" can and should be rebalanced.

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johnKeys wrote:

there is no crafting.
there is no self-finding.
Path Of Exile is as bad as Diablo 3, if you are stupid enough to play it as a 100% ARPG.

No.

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johnKeys wrote:

@Scrotie and @CanHasPants, I think you guys are looking at this backwards.
there is cause and consequence.
people hoard orbs instead of craft with them, because there is no crafting.
people buy what they need, because there is no self-finding.
you need to be filthy rich to craft gamble.

Agreed. I paid 3 chaos for a chest piece with the stats I was looking forward to. Nothing end game but enough to help me survive in Merc.

Sweet. Problem was it had 1 socket.

I then proceeded to spend all the orbs I saved up and never got past 4 sockets.

Fine. I can live with 4 sockets, I was shooting for a mere 4L anyway.

Yeah. Never got that.

I went through probably 25 chaos worth of orbs and, for a new player, that's a depressing amount. With those chaos I could have bought what I gambled to get.

This isn't even fair RNG. The chances of getting a 1 or 2 socket is astronomically higher than a 5 or 6 socket.

As it is, I think I'm done with gambling. This is just like the Gachapon in Maple Story, Crates in Team Fortress 2, etc... just a waste of resources. Might as well save up all the orbs I find, turn them all into chaos and then buy the fucking shit I need without all the head/heartache.

These sites are needed, without them trading would be neigh on impossible especially with the influx of players such as I. The population grows daily and, with them, the spam on the forums and trading chats. It's impossible to get what you want from that. Not to mention the time needed to do so. As a college student spending an hour scouring these sites with their filters and then contacting the traders is already most of my free time taken up.

I fully support any website that makes this grueling process of getting gear easier.