Scrotie wants YOU to help prevent PoE's economy from becoming more like D3's

I think the economy is just fine and healthy.

The thing that broke D3's economy wasn't the auction house on its own.
It was Blizzard tolerance when it comes to bots.
If PoE where as bot infested as D3 is we would see trades like. WTS Shavvrone 500ex
and i don't even think thats an exaggerated estimation.

"

odongnipelai wrote:

ScrotieMcB i think you should stop shoving what u want to happen down our throats. if u dnt want b/o then ignore those with b/o and haggle ahead. there are those whod rather play than spend 30 mins haggling, or worse:

Buyer: how much for XXXX
seller: offer?
buyer: 4(insert orb)?
seller: .....
buyer: so?
seller:.....
buyer: c/o atleast or b/o?
seller: if you offerd 4 (orb) then i dnt need to tell you the b/o

+1 ;D

"

odongnipelai wrote:

ScrotieMcB i think you should stop shoving what u want to happen down our throats. if u dnt want b/o then ignore those with b/o and haggle ahead. there are those whod rather play than spend 30 mins haggling, or worse:

Buyer: how much for XXXX
seller: offer?
buyer: 4(insert orb)?
seller: .....
buyer: so?
seller:.....
buyer: c/o atleast or b/o?
seller: if you offerd 4 (orb) then i dnt need to tell you the b/o

"

CanHasPants wrote:

Too apropos not to repeat:

If the relevance escapes you, the best I can offer is a brief synopsis: These services prop up buyouts as a gold-standard to determine the value of orbs. Since these services exist, you are then left to either use those services or fall behind. There is no choice involved otherwise.

In other words: The only reason you've grown so dependent upon a b/o to streamline your trade experiences, is because the game lacks the features and systems to support something otherwise, therefore allowing the b/o to exist. Fill in the gaps: what if the game didn't lack those features and systems?

I totally agree with poe.xyz.is work.

"

Aelloon wrote:

You don't seem to play the game a whole lot - not by your character levels nor the things you keep saying on the forums here.

If you'd play the game you would realize how horrible trading already is.

Out of 15000 character is Nemesis, mine is currently 5195. Don't you think it's a tad elitist to say that someone in the top 35% of a league doesn't play the game enough? The vast majority of players are not in the top 400 like you are.

And yes, I trade. With the sole exception of my shield, I've traded for every piece of gear I'm currently wearing.

"

Aelloon wrote:

One of the reasons why it is such is that people do not know what items are worth - sellers always want the most possible out of their items, which means that it is impossible for a "personal valuation of items" to exist in a way where two parties interact in trades.

A trader who cannot put his greed in check is rarely going to follow through with a sale; this leads to inefficiency and wasted time by the greedy. A good trader, even under the current system, doesn't fall into this trap as much, trying to eek out moderate profits instead of exorbitant ones. Is the community really so immature that they need Daddy to tell them what items are worth, otherwise such greed will go uncontrolled? And more importantly: If Daddy is always their to rein in such immaturity, how will the community ever actually learn how to be mature? Buyouts spoil the community in the same way an overprotective parent spoils a child.

edit: This is very similar to CanHasPant's point; the buyout system fosters a dependency which leads you to believe you cannot live without it, but in fact you can, and probably would easily if it hadn't developed.

"

Aelloon wrote:

Also, you seem to be under the assumption that the auction house is what was really wrong with D3. "The problem of loot you find not being good" - well guess what, that problem would exist even WITHOUT the auction house. The difference is that the problem would be much less obvious - an auction house brings it up much more quickly.

I actually agree with that. However, the big sin does not justify the smaller one; just because you have itemization problems does not mean you should undertake changes which "brings it up more quickly." That's going from the frying pan into the fire.

"

Aelloon wrote:

I have a chest with 0 life and a 5-link that is level 41 required. I still use unique gloves because they're the only one which fit exactly what I need and I do not find items which would be better for it. I NEED to trade. Oh yeah, I'm still using a Terminus Est as well - simply because the trading system is horrible. Just look at the prices of >400 dps 2h swords on Nemesis - 8 exalteds are the opening bids for them. Buyouts are at 20 exalteds. TWENTY.

This ax is on sale for 10 Chaos.

You can try to buy it here.

Or maybe you're really dedicated to swords for some reason (which, in the current Nemesis economy, perhaps you shouldn't be, as it seems too many are). In which case there's still this 350+ DPSer for 8 Chaos:

You can try to buy it here.

Neither have been Q'd up, so you could get a little more DPS out of them with some Whetstones.

Either you are doing it wrong, or your current weapon is almost as good and you're being too picky. Or maybe you expect 5L to be free for you now, since you already did it once. I mean, for fuck's sake, that took me about 45 seconds with a xyz search — which is my point, that shit is powerful. The economy isn't as bad as you make it out to be, and 400+ DPS two-handers are very nice weapons anyway, worthy of a high cost.

"

Aelloon wrote:

So please stop whining about things which would make people's lives a little easier in a game you don't even seem to want to play.

I think you have it backwards. I want to play trading games; it's everyone else who doesn't. And yet, for some reason, they believe they are still entitled to trading.

I know you understand. You're a Nemesis player. You know what it's like to want the game to be harder. That doesn't mean you want one-shot mechanics or other idiot things, but it does mean that you appreciate a well-designed challenge. That's what trading should be more like: a well-designed challenge, not a well-designed convenience.

"

I want to play trading games; it's everyone else who doesn't. And yet, for some reason, they believe they are still entitled to trading.

Then play them, though when you say the word "trading" and I think you really mean "haggling". I, and it would seem the overwhelmingly vast majority of the community, absolutely do not want to waste our precious non-work time on something that to us feels like work. I despise haggling, I'll often pay full price for something just so I don't have to go through the excruciatingly painful experience of haggling for something. Forcing me to do it in this game as you seem to desire would be a major turn off and I'd likely find another way to spend my time.

The basic problem with your entire argument is that you keep throwing around 'buyout economy' like a lame corporate buzzword and trying to convince us that xzy leads to it. No argument there. What you have utterly failed to do is convince anyone that a buyout economy is a bad thing. As far as we're concerned it's a great thing, it lets us spend less time doing something profoundly unenjoyable and more time killing monsters.

Bottom line you enjoy haggling, we don't. So haggle to your heart's content with the other people that enjoy it, meanwhile leave the rest of us and the game the hell alone.

Also I might claim that you can only really haggle prices down if you have other established prices to compare to.

For example, I might be able to get 6 chaos on a well-rolled unique when I notice the usual price that unique is 5 chaos.

Going:

A: I want 10ex
B: 4
A: 8?
B: 5?
A: 7?
B: ok 7

is pretty lame haggling, compared to

A: I offer 3 chaos on (unique)
B: Price I see on my unique is usually 5, mine is perfectly rolled, I think I can get 8. [8 is clearly overly optimistic here, at least 5 is reasonable given market data.].
A: OK, I will do better. I think the 5 is a bit overpriced though, since those are listed prices, and (other rare) can do almost the same job for me costing 5c. I will do 6 but no higher. [A demonstrates with reason why 8 is too high, again given market data.]
B: 6 sounds good.
-or-
B: Sorry, that's still too low.
A: Thanks anyway.

While I agree that buyouts are not healthy and is something I could do without, do remember that it does not take an indexer to list a buyout. Players could simply list it in their sale thread, so that once you click the link from xyz, it would have a buyout price listed there (assuming xyz does not list it in the website itself).

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I agree with what you're saying Scrotie, but I don't think this problem has much to do with xyz at all, buyouts will always exist while people want them and list them. It's people's attitudes that you will have to change if you want buyouts gone :)

Not entirely sure why you're telling people to downvote the iLvl suggestion on xyz, but then go on to make the entire thread about how you hate buyouts. Either way I don't see buyouts as big a problem as you make them out to be. Indexers like xyz and poexplorer very rarely have the item you're looking for listed with a buyout, and even if they did remove the b/o from indexers people can still just have the b/o listed in the thread. The only time you can really use buyouts to help gauge a ballpark price on these sites is with uniques.

All in all I agree with the majority of this thread, and personally feel like you're over thinking this entire thing. Without indexer sites it would be much too difficult to find end-game gear that's specific to your build.

"

syrioforel wrote:

Also I might claim that you can only really haggle prices down if you have other established prices to compare to.

For example, I might be able to get 6 chaos on a well-rolled unique when I notice the usual price that unique is 5 chaos.

Going:

A: I want 10ex
B: 4
A: 8?
B: 5?
A: 7?
B: ok 7

is pretty lame haggling, compared to

A: I offer 3 chaos on (unique)
B: Price I see on my unique is usually 5, mine is perfectly rolled, I think I can get 8. [8 is clearly overly optimistic here, at least 5 is reasonable given market data.].
A: OK, I will do better. I think the 5 is a bit overpriced though, since those are listed prices, and (other rare) can do almost the same job for me costing 5c. I will do 6 but no higher. [A demonstrates with reason why 8 is too high, again given market data.]
B: 6 sounds good.
-or-
B: Sorry, that's still too low.
A: Thanks anyway.

Perfectly rolled items can raise 2X-3X-4X from their usual price.