Scrotie wants YOU to help prevent PoE's economy from becoming more like D3's

Well, first off, I do support having item level visible through the forums - it makes it easier to verify that what you're trying to buy is, in fact, ilvl 77 instead of 64 before going through the process of haggling and finally hitting the trade screen to figure out that the prick's scamming you.

That said, I would like PoE to stay away from the buyout economy, but I don't think the solution to that is hiding more information from the indexers. I think the solution to that is having currency be useful for crafting in the mid-/end- game, instead of just in the start and the very very end of the game like it is now. Because as it is, if you get your hands on an Exalt at level 50 or so, you get two options: Try for a new mod on your mediocre sword, or just buy one that's far better than mediocre. Scrotie is pushing for the second option to be more difficult to balance this; I prefer to push for having the first option be more viable than it is now.

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Nephalim wrote:

Spoiler

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Finkenstein wrote:

Spoiler

Hi

GGG needs to take the reins on trading and either:A) set up a official pricing guide on forums or B)Recognize one of these third parties and endorse them for POE(GGG has done this few times already,etc:razer,twitch,steam)

Mostly though I am all for a AH its was quick and easy (lol d3 gets rifts we get the AH).

Or add a cooldown to people in trade chat:1 msg every min per person so we can read what people put up.

cheers

pricing guide on rares? that is literally impossible.

This is not impossible it's stupid.. if GGG made it ofc. On the other hand : I COULD DO IT, it must be done by a player.
I just need more trading time investment.

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Ouroboros226 wrote:

Spoiler

Im glad you care enough about the trading system to get it fixed, but I also believe you are attacking branches of the problem and not the root.

Ive played about 400 hours of PoE (Humble guess at my minimum playtime):

Found 1-2 divine orbs
Found 1 exalted orb in my POE lifetime

See the problem here? If I want to buy a 6-link EVER, I have to play (400=1. 400x10=) 4000 hours to buy a 6 link.

The game is currently forcing people to either:

1) Play self found only
2) RMT

1 exalted in 400 hours of playing.
Mirrors = Never found
Divine = A few

The problem is rather obvious, you have to divorce your wife, quit your job, invest all waking hours into POE - to even enter the the trade market. That or RMT.

My friend made 60 chaos within 5 hours playing Domination, and he started with NO CURRENCY not even a wisdom i believe ( he had the "no currency droping" problem ( flagged as a bot) i think it has been solved) . He sold a gem or something he had for 2 chaos or 2 gcp and started. *He flipped things*

So :

3) Or Trading. ( i made a guide about how to make wealth on PoE btw)

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aimlessgun wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Item valuation should be build-dependent, and based on your personal valuations of what the items actually do; it should be a fully independent activity. Item valuation should not be community-dependent, but that's exactly the toxic effect of searchable buyouts.

Also, I think you're overstating the degree to which this happens in PoE. Only uniques are particularly community priced.

@Scrotie: This!

Did you trade intensely? I don't think so.
Players who put bo onto rares put them randomly. Because only a few number of players know what are the good items.



So whenever you start trading a lot you can notice this :
-Uniques + to a lesser extent rare weapons ( pDPS/DPS ) valuation is community-dependent.
Rare Helmets, and:
Boots
Gloves
Belts
low level and mid level body armours
Shields
to a lesser extent weapons ( especially 1H maces / Caster Wands )

valuation is not community-dependent. don't worry.

You want all items valuation to not be community-dependent ? You should fight against streamers featuring each month a new build. And doing trades in front of 8000+ viewers.

A bunch of items valuation is not community dependent but streamer_s_build_of_the_month dependent. ( yes kripp does not say that a 5L searing touch should be worth 8 ex on domination but he is the one who can say what are the expensive items)
Yep streams are another form of "xyz buyouts"

I am worried more about that expert-everything-flipper-allFourLeagues rmt guy i reported who is still playing. And top ladder players using D2jsp!

I have never used anything other than the poe forums and in game trade and i have no problems at endgame on 4 characters.


Juts don't use it...

poexyz is a great tool for many players. if you don't like it, don't use it. just leave us alone with nerfing everything.

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ephetat wrote:

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Spoiler

I will concede this to you though: challenging the buyout mentality is difficult. It's a lot like the situation with Diablo 2, when there was rampant cheating, botting, dupes. I believe it's a fixable problem, but it requires inconveniences to the player (such as online-only gaming, which is a huge inconvenience for those without or with poor internet connectivity, especially those who plan to play solo) and even then it's a problem which likely never gets fixed completely (there are still botters in PoE, even if GGG is hunting for them and banning them). It would mean implementing a system similar to the one I described in another thread, and removing options such as the ability to link items in forum and trade chat. The whole thing would be experimental, there would likely be unforeseen complications, and at some point things would probably go wrong for a bit until a solution was found, because right now it is just "on paper." But I don't believe that means we shouldn't try, that we should let the fear of failure stop us.

Scrotie, the mentality you are referring to is there for a reason -- the game's existing design promotes it. It is what CanHasPants refers to as "risk and reward not being in balance" and "the wild swings of luck". Until there exists systems in the game that proportionally reward the player for actually using the currency items they have instead of encouraging hoarding, people will trade, and they will seek ways to -- to an extent, but not to that of an Auction House, as limited by the game's design -- optimize it.

Until then, whatever issues you might have with people's mentality is, I feel, misplaced. No player should feel the need to take the long view, as a theorycrafter such as you likes to do. No one has a reason to believe that the current status quo (defined by trading's reliablity and predictability compared to "crafting") will change in the short or long term, and for those people, your arguments have no significance.

Crafting is fucked. And until GGG unfucks it, there shall be no alternative to trading, and poe.xyz will remain a benefit to this community. Level the playing field (and I know you put in the effort to do so) and then your abstract concerns will have their rightful place.

I completely expect players to do whatever suits their immediate needs and/or whatever seems the most fun to them.

However, xyz's suggestion is not a suggestion to the players; it is a suggestion to GGG. And GGG, as game designers, should take the long view. Part of that means looking at how actions which might have some apparent short-term benefit would actually be to the long-term detriment of the game.

If minimizing the buyout mentality isn't on GGG's list of long-term goals, if it's not what they're really thinking about when they say things like "the economy is the most important part of the game to us," then their priorities are messed up.

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lailaseth wrote:

poexyz is a great tool for many players. if you don't like it, don't use it. just leave us alone with nerfing everything.

I never recommended a nerf. The only course of action I'm suggesting at this time is not enacting a buff.

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ScrotieMcB wrote:

Item valuation should be build-dependent, and based on your personal valuations of what the items actually do; it should be a fully independent activity. Item valuation should not be community-dependent, but that's exactly the toxic effect of searchable buyouts.

Okay, I was trying to be nice: but are you really this stupid or just trolling? You don't seem to play the game a whole lot - not by your character levels nor the things you keep saying on the forums here. So what's your problem?

If you'd play the game you would realize how horrible trading already is. One of the reasons why it is such is that people do not know what items are worth - sellers always want the most possible out of their items, which means that it is impossible for a "personal valuation of items" to exist in a way where two parties interact in trades.

Also, you seem to be under the assumption that the auction house is what was really wrong with D3. "The problem of loot you find not being good" - well guess what, that problem would exist even WITHOUT the auction house. The difference is that the problem would be much less obvious - an auction house brings it up much more quickly. Just look at PoE's current situation: I've been farming Piety runs essentially from level 66 onwards with rarity gear (less at first, more later - I'm currently at 42% IIQ and 132% IIR or something along those numbers). I've found one upgrade for my gear in the entire time doing so. One. I am level 83.55. And yes, it takes hundreds of runs to get any exp there for me.

I have a chest with 0 life and a 5-link that is level 41 required. I still use unique gloves because they're the only one which fit exactly what I need and I do not find items which would be better for it. I NEED to trade. Oh yeah, I'm still using a Terminus Est as well - simply because the trading system is horrible. Just look at the prices of >400 dps 2h swords on Nemesis - 8 exalteds are the opening bids for them. Buyouts are at 20 exalteds. TWENTY.

If we had way more searchables there it would be much more in line with what they should be worth, but we don't. Because people like you don't understand that auction houses really just show you that a problem with the loot system exists. You think it's the auction house which is the broken part.

So please stop whining about things which would make people's lives a little easier in a game you don't even seem to want to play.

PS: what the hell is with the "he's trying to get more power"? You do realize he's providing a free tool for a free game, right? He didn't even have ads until somebody else asked him to get them.

why do you even care?

for the majority of the items it doesnt matter what their ilvl is. If its a rare with low ilvl it doesn't matter if you can 4S it because if you cant then you will just change it in a few levels anyway due to low stats.

If its a unique then most being used only for leveling will also be swapped out of very quickly.

The only exception are things that can be 6S and for those very few items that are actually worth 6S, but its unclear what the ilvl is, you can just ask the seller in the rare cases that he hasnt posted the item level.

Why would GGG want to spend valuable work hours for something of so little significance?

quill rain
maligaro
facebreaker
searing touch

ScrotieMcB i think you should stop shoving what u want to happen down our throats. if u dnt want b/o then ignore those with b/o and haggle ahead. there are those whod rather play than spend 30 mins haggling, or worse:

Buyer: how much for XXXX
seller: offer?
buyer: 4(insert orb)?
seller: .....
buyer: so?
seller:.....
buyer: c/o atleast or b/o?
seller: if you offerd 4 (orb) then i dnt need to tell you the b/o

I haven't played enough ARPGs or even enough path of exile to have a meaningful opinion on the economy, but being clueless when buying/selling something has a crippling effect on me. I don't want to sell something for less than it could be "worth", because even if it's worth very little to me it might be worth more according to whatever consensus is met on the league, and the payment I get directly affects how much actually useful stuff I can buy. So in an MMO I'd just put my item up in the auction house around the lowest buyouts. In POE I need to do the same thing without any of the convenience, the indexer helps only a little.

I don't feel like there is "bartering" right now, it's just auction house without the auction house. I do not enjoy the interpersonal aspect of trading in such a large-scale game, so making a thread in the trading forum or browsing the indexer is more convenient for me than spamming 20 trade channels for half an hour to get nothing. I don't know what's better for the game, I'm just doing what many players do in order to not get ripped off.


This reminds me of the whole loot allocation deal. Half the community wants Functionality A, the other half wants Functionality B and GGG has some thematic bottleneck that doesn't really make anyone happy. I don't know where I want this to go, but if there's a solution that turns exalts from pseudo-gold to usable crafting materials I vote for that one.