The Palpable and Uninformed Hate and Dismissal of POE1 Veterans Sounding the Alarm is Worrying

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Akedomo#3573 wrote:

This post is nothing but drivel.

The issue is that we have PoE 1 Veterans, that want a largely copy paste version of PoE 2.

And many of these Veterans are also of the 'git gud' crowd.


Both of these groups of people, and their advice should be taken with a grain of salt.

PoE 1 lasted 12 years, that's true. But it also only appeals to a very specific type of player. Whales, Addicts, and people that like meticulous, grindy gameplay and mechanics.

Over that 12 years. The game has lost an incredible amount of players, simply from being a poor game for your average gamer.

[and bla and bla and bla]

This post is nothing but drivel. It hits with so many wrong takes from the get go that I failed to go through it all.

1- POE1 is losing so many players and failing. Have you even looked at the player count https://steamdb.info/app/238960/charts/ ?

2- POE1 is only appealing to a very specific niche of try hard / PHD / addict / through in your favorite stereotype for "poe1 veterans". Have you looked at the achievement stats and the critics on steam ? Let me help you:

a- https://store.steampowered.com/app/238960/Path_of_Exile/ 91% recent and 89% all-time positive, that's hell of disappointing and failing game

b- https://steamcommunity.com/stats/PathofExile/achievements some examples

i. 91% of players never reached a lvl20 skill gem
ii. 92% never killed Argus
iii. 92% never completed the uber lab (4th ascendancy)
iv. 93% never reached level 90
v. 93% never applied a voidstone to their map

and on and on. Now what does that tell you? The majority of players are casuals, the majority of players enjy the game. Crazy I know. How is that even possible?

May be BECAUSE of the complexity, the many systems the crazy endgame. It's for most players ASPIRATIONAL CONTENT. As a casual (I consider my self one, even though I achieved all the above, and killed all bosses except ubers I think, but only on 1-3 characters I think, after years!), you keep coming back because you know that, in addition to the new league, there's a lot of content you haven't even seen, mechanics you don't master, leagues you completely missed and you can rediscover, etc...

You don't have to take it all in all at once, you take your time and you discover new things each time, at your own rythm. Crafting ? it's complex, sure, you don't have to be the best or even good at it (I'm not), you just try a few thing, nobody is forcing you to ingurgitate all that content at once. Or not, find an activity you like, you'll make enough currency to trade for what you need and reach a respectable point in the game, achieve what goals YOU SET FOR YOURSELF.

There are guides for everything in the game, from builds to crafting, farming... you name it.

Now to POE2. If you strip all that depth down, and render the game more tedious, what are you left with? The shell of a game where the most experienced players (and those are 100% poe veterans) will completely dominate the game and break it apart, and the casuals will have their fill after a league, and may be will return, or not, depending on a) if they there is still enough for them to do; and especially b) how FUN the experience was, which for the vast majority of casual non tryhard people, I'm pretty sure (I might still be proven wrong), means an enjoyable ride, with chill gameplay, where they can ramp up the difficulty if they feel like it. Not pseudo-Ruthless with pseudo-hardcore mechanics thrown in.


With all due respect, if you don't understand that, and clearly you don't because you don't even acknowledge that POE1 IS successfull, and played mainly by casuals, than frankly you opinion is, to use your own words, drivel. You don't even know what you're talking about.

There.

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Akedomo#3573 wrote:

If you didn't play with a loot filter. You'd kill a boss and it would explode into 100 items. But 98 of them were garbage.

Wait, what? How were you managing to get 2% good items?

All everyone does is bash each other.

I personally want a harder slower paced game, but i'd agree on some points.

Too many corridors! -> Make more maps open without all the squeeze through corridors, too many maze like maps.

Backtracking! -> Either add in checkpoints or mounts for maps that can be used when you have the 200 monsters left, or add in a cooldown/cast timer so it won't be abused. It should never be allowed to be used in between packs, but as a backtracking tool to fix the problem; "frick i missed a rare at the start of my map."

One shotting map bosses! -> Nerf..


I've been a poe1 player since beta, and i love poe2 far more than poe1, so i personally feel quite good.

It's not all poe1 players that hate poe2, and it's not only "new" players talking trash about poe1 players. (I do too) For those who argue that the game is too difficult that is.
Poe2 is very succesful, and we've just begun, people arguing that it'll die soon are weird, let the devs cook..

For the people whining about GGG not responding, they're on hollidays too, so relax..

big true OP!!!

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Ferablekeft#0586 wrote:

All everyone does is bash each other.

I personally want a harder slower paced game, but i'd agree on some points.

Too many corridors! -> Make more maps open without all the squeeze through corridors, too many maze like maps.

Backtracking! -> Either add in checkpoints or mounts for maps that can be used when you have the 200 monsters left, or add in a cooldown/cast timer so it won't be abused. It should never be allowed to be used in between packs, but as a backtracking tool to fix the problem; "frick i missed a rare at the start of my map."

One shotting map bosses! -> Nerf..


I've been a poe1 player since beta, and i love poe2 far more than poe1, so i personally feel quite good.

It's not all poe1 players that hate poe2, and it's not only "new" players talking trash about poe1 players. (I do too) For those who argue that the game is too difficult that is.
Poe2 is very succesful, and we've just begun, people arguing that it'll die soon are weird, let the devs cook..

For the people whining about GGG not responding, they're on hollidays too, so relax..

Thank you, one of the best replies yet.

-1

I can understand certain concerns, like the combination of the slower pace and bigger maps leading to frustration, since it takes much longer to reach endgame. And GGG ofc needs players who are willing to go through this campaign at least 20-30 times, since you have to restart at least once every season if you want to participate in the league or if you want to roll a new character. So this is one issue I agree with. Maps should be more streamlined, a little bit smaller and quest related objectives should be way easier to find. Spending 30 minutes on a campaign quest because I've missed a tiny gap can lead to frustration and ofc isn't exciting, which is problematic when players engage with a game that has the word "action" in it's genre.

That said, I also see alot of these "veterans" complain about things I don't agree with. Some of them ask for life nodes, auction house, getting rid of trials, making certain bosses easier... These are aspects I don't agree with. GGG would have tackled these topics already if their metrics had shown some issues. GGG very likely can see, how many players reached the trials and how many actually solved them. And I would say most players did it at some point. Maybe you don't like it, but it's only a small portion of the game. Once overcome, you don't have to return to these trials. And making bosses easier? Why, when so many melee users state, that the boss was perfectly doable? I think many "veterans" are used to high-speed-easy-kill gameplay. Every boss was a one-shot or was designed in a way, that you could easily face tank them to a certain degree (except for some uber bosses maybe). But people here complain about campaign bosses, which is ridiculous. I mean, yes, the giant is bugged and clunky as hell, since the character is clipping through alot of polygons. That should be fixed, but other then that, the boss is easy and I did it as stormweaver and titan. Same goes for the trials.

So just because some people are playing PoE1 for quite some years, doesn't give them more credibility then a new player. GGG clearly said, that PoE2 is going to be a different game. They said, that PoE1 and PoE2 should co-exist and PoE1 will be further supported with leagues. So players who enjoy PoE1 gameplay, can still play PoE1. PoE2 MUST be different, otherwise every PoE1 player would just migrate to PoE2 and PoE1 would die. That's not what GGG is aiming for.

And I fully disagree, that "not listining to the veterans" will lead to "PoE2 will die". I think the voice of veterans are definitely overestimated here. I think GGG will tackle problems that are objectively not in a good state. They have metrics for that. Like: How many T15 maps get actually finished. If GGG sees, that 95% of the players die in T15 maps, they will very likely tune it down. If a large portion of the playerbase actually finishes T15 maps, then it will stay as it is.

Well stated Kraythax and I agree. I will NOT be stating how much money I have spent on PoE1 since I started playing it at Open Beta all those years ago......it is quite a bit more than you have spent, but worth every penny to me.

I hope PoE2 can find a way to take my time and money as well. I hope.

Great post Brother.

***I will say that I bought 5 Voidborn supporter packs......don't let my little 13 badges that they LET me show fool ya, I have a Lot more badges I could throw under my name if they let me. ;)

So yeah, I kinda helped make this game happen and I am happy for it. Just wanna have fun is all.

And unlike MOST PoE1 players, I have Never used poebuilder, nor copy pasted ANY other build, ever, lol. Every single one of my builds in PoE1 was a true Original. How many can say that? Some worked, some got deleted before level 30, lol.

Point is, it was fun when they worked, they were fun when they failed. Just sayin.

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Maldosam#3663 wrote:

This post is nothing but drivel. It hits with so many wrong takes from the get go that I failed to go through it all.

Yeah. I bet. So you're still going to respond without reading it all? Interesting choice. Not my first, but hey.. If it works for you.

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Maldosam#3663 wrote:

1- POE1 is losing so many players and failing. Have you even looked at the player count https://steamdb.info/app/238960/charts/ ?

Yeah, I wasn't talking about it losing players right now. I was talking about over the entire lifespan of the game.

When a game isn't accessible, and doesn't offer players a good experience. They don't stay. Many of the systems in PoE, do not lead to a good experience for players. And as such, the game has lost many potential players over the years.

"

Maldosam#3663 wrote:

2- POE1 is only appealing to a very specific niche of try hard / PHD / addict / through in your favorite stereotype for "poe1 veterans". Have you looked at the achievement stats and the critics on steam ? Let me help you:

a- https://store.steampowered.com/app/238960/Path_of_Exile/ 91% recent and 89% all-time positive, that's hell of disappointing and failing game

Man, It's almost as if I knew you wouldn't be able to comprehend written words when you told me at the beginning that you didn't read the whole comment.

I never said PoE was a failing game. I said it was failing to keep players.

I also implore you to look at the reviews, and look at the average game time.

There's definitely a correlation there. Almost as if people like to give a game a good review after a few hours, but that doesn't mean they keep playing it.

"

Maldosam#3663 wrote:

blah blah blah huge rant post talking about something you think I said, because you failed to learn how to read in second grade

The point I'm making, is that this game doesn't have good player retention.

Casuals play the game, and then quit. They get to level 80, and then quit. They see the stupid ass crafting system and the trade system, and they quit.

So why, knowing this. Would we want PoE 2 to have the same systems, and same style of gameplay, that causes players to stop playing it? You think this isn't happening? It's happened to me over the last 12 years, with almost every single one of my friends. People get busy, and then forget about PoE, because it's a convoluted, mess. And there's no point in playing it casually, because it's just a bad casual game. It takes a huge amount of time, and it's a very unrewarding experience outside of the unique builds for most.

And even that. The passive tree, scares people off too.

My friend is a straight up dirty slut for ARPG's, and plays them religiously, but even he, can't get interested in PoE, because it's not about the gameplay. It's about sitting in town crafting and trading once you hit 70.


I want a game that has more effort put into making it an enjoyable experience all around. Rather than just something that like you showed above, 5-7% of players want the game to be. They are the minority.



You should also go read the negative reviews on PoE. Because they paint the exact picture that I'm trying to show you.

People play the game and get through the acts. And then they get hit with the reality of what the game actually is. A shitty grindfest, full of crafting, and trading and build optimization. And then.. People quit.

A ton of those new reviews are between 0-30 hours too. And for a new player. Never touched Poe before. I'd assume that's just barely enough time to get through the Acts. Did they keep playing after? You can see positive reviews from months ago that are still stuck at 25 hours. So, obviously the game isn't retaining lots of players, for some.. odd reason. I wonder what that is?





Man, almost as if.. Some of those players gave it a positive review before they reached this part of the game? So what's the actual numbers then, do you know? Or do you just look at a game and see '91% positive reviews' and just assume the game is good for everyone then?

I consider myself a PoE veteran and I have major issues in learning the new game. And yes, it is humiliating to fail in a game which I wrongly perceived as the 2.0 Upgrade of the existing formula - which I had (more or less) decoded. In short: I expected the nothing short but perfect game for me.

Sidenote: I am having fun right now. And I notice how I get more and more into the game - getting used to another rythm. Basically: I switched camp (From frustrated PoE Player to curious and engaged PoE2 Player).

But in my rather rocky starting phase I closely follwed the feedback-discussions to see, if it is just me who felt let dwon. Also to vent frustration. So now, while I am exiting the discussions because I can concentrate more on the game, I wanted to give a (yea, maybe somewhat entitled) feedback to the discussion itself:

It may have started a little bit rough but seemed to take a good direction. In the beginning you could very often see both ideas in one statement, the good and the bad of the game weighed against each other in way more nuanced discussions. And the quick reaction of GGG to adress issues which had been adressed in this discussions seemed to promise a constructive and productive feedback process.
But while the game seemed to improve, the discussion about it seems to deteriorate with every day. What I perceive are two entreched camps, both just yelling the same arguments at each other in an ever increasing volume and pitch - and slowly occupying all discussions, threads, platforms. That is why I am leaving the discussion - it starts to deteriate my enjoyment of playing the game.

And I think this will become a big problem for the discussion: All the "get good" and "our game" yelling at each other seems to drown valid feedback and critizism in bipartisan shit. And that would be a pity, because I think the discussion started rather promising. :)

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Akedomo#3573 wrote:

"

Maldosam#3663 wrote:

This post is nothing but drivel. It hits with so many wrong takes from the get go that I failed to go through it all.

Yeah. I bet. So you're still going to respond without reading it all? Interesting choice. Not my first, but hey.. If it works for you.

"

Maldosam#3663 wrote:

1- POE1 is losing so many players and failing. Have you even looked at the player count https://steamdb.info/app/238960/charts/ ?

Yeah, I wasn't talking about it losing players right now. I was talking about over the entire lifespan of the game.

When a game isn't accessible, and doesn't offer players a good experience. They don't stay. Many of the systems in PoE, do not lead to a good experience for players. And as such, the game has lost many potential players over the years.

"

Maldosam#3663 wrote:

2- POE1 is only appealing to a very specific niche of try hard / PHD / addict / through in your favorite stereotype for "poe1 veterans". Have you looked at the achievement stats and the critics on steam ? Let me help you:

a- https://store.steampowered.com/app/238960/Path_of_Exile/ 91% recent and 89% all-time positive, that's hell of disappointing and failing game

Man, It's almost as if I knew you wouldn't be able to comprehend written words when you told me at the beginning that you didn't read the whole comment.

I never said PoE was a failing game. I said it was failing to keep players.

I also implore you to look at the reviews, and look at the average game time.

There's definitely a correlation there. Almost as if people like to give a game a good review after a few hours, but that doesn't mean they keep playing it.

"

Maldosam#3663 wrote:

blah blah blah huge rant post talking about something you think I said, because you failed to learn how to read in second grade

The point I'm making, is that this game doesn't have good player retention.

Casuals play the game, and then quit. They get to level 80, and then quit. They see the stupid ass crafting system and the trade system, and they quit.

So why, knowing this. Would we want PoE 2 to have the same systems, and same style of gameplay, that causes players to stop playing it? You think this isn't happening? It's happened to me over the last 12 years, with almost every single one of my friends. People get busy, and then forget about PoE, because it's a convoluted, mess. And there's no point in playing it casually, because it's just a bad casual game. It takes a huge amount of time, and it's a very unrewarding experience outside of the unique builds for most.

And even that. The passive tree, scares people off too.

My friend is a straight up dirty slut for ARPG's, and plays them religiously, but even he, can't get interested in PoE, because it's not about the gameplay. It's about sitting in town crafting and trading once you hit 70.


I want a game that has more effort put into making it an enjoyable experience all around. Rather than just something that like you showed above, 5-7% of players want the game to be. They are the minority.



You should also go read the negative reviews on PoE. Because they paint the exact picture that I'm trying to show you.

People play the game and get through the acts. And then they get hit with the reality of what the game actually is. A shitty grindfest, full of crafting, and trading and build optimization. And then.. People quit.

A ton of those new reviews are between 0-30 hours too. And for a new player. Never touched Poe before. I'd assume that's just barely enough time to get through the Acts. Did they keep playing after? You can see positive reviews from months ago that are still stuck at 25 hours. So, obviously the game isn't retaining lots of players, for some.. odd reason. I wonder what that is?

yeeaaaah... I guess I will leave at that. Thank you for your time :D

Edit: I went back and read your entire post. It doesn't get any better really, so stopping at those first paragraphs was the right call... Have a nice day.