The Palpable and Uninformed Hate and Dismissal of POE1 Veterans Sounding the Alarm is Worrying

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Shrodin#0981 wrote:

I ask that GGG stay true to their vision instead of kneejerk reacting to feedback.

Also, being a veteran of POE1 doesn't give me more credibility than others. If anything, give more credibility to those that have a plethora of game experience or perhaps their own game design experience.

The reason there is pushback is that people slap on "I have 10k hours of POE1, therefore you should pay more attention to my feedback than someone who never played POE1" when providing their feedback. Even the term POE Veteran is already implying, "pay more attention to me." It's asinine.

Edit: people seem to forget that POE2 has been marketed as a game with more methodical, strategic moment-to-moment gameplay. The reason it's an entirely new game is so that they can break away from the shackles of POE1, yet everyone is trying to shackle this game with POE1 solutions and ideas. I want the next evolution of ARPG, not a sidegrade.

You are completely right.

Just because you're a veteran of a game, doesn't mean your opinion on changes is the correct one.

Lots of people coming in to try this game have experience with dozens, or even hundreds of other games.

When you do nothing but play PoE. You cannot see things objectively. It really is that simple. You get used to mechanics and systems over the years. And when people complain about them, they're shot down as insignificant.


I have experience in many games, I know what people like in each of these games. I also know that many of the systems in PoE, developed over years, to appeal to a small portion of the playerbase. Alienating tons of other potential customers/players.

Having 10,000 hours in a game might give you a better balance sense. But it sure as hell doesn't help you understand where improvements can be made, because you have no other viewpoints to compare it to.

The 10,000 hour veterans for instance. All want the crafting system back in the game. So they can get their gear crafted

But the root issue, is that for 12 years, they've been playing with crappy PoE loot, and crafting was the solution. They don't realize that the loot in this game is just inherently bad in many ways.

They can fix this in PoE 2. But everyone's just asking for more crafting orbs instead. lol. They have no idea, because they have a narrow viewpoint, and habits.

When a game has a ton of players coming in and telling you 'I don't like this, I don't like that'. You should generally, try to listen to them. Gamers know what's fun, and what's not fun. Getting one shot by an enemy is unfun. It's not a moment for a 10,000 hour idiot to go 'Just build better and git gud'.

There's tons of people on the forums right now complaining about loot. I think GGG needs to take this to heart. And refrain from trying to fix it with currency. We're back to PoE 1. Where most of the loot was very very very boring. Because they expected you to trade and craft to progress. Rather than just killing bosses and getting better loot off it.

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Shrodin#0981 wrote:

Well said. I've learned over the past few days browsing the forum that the poe1 community kind of sucks.

It's the brainrot from staring at your computer screen for 10,000 hours, spamming exalts on a chestpiece.

I agree with the OP 100%

The game feels very much like a chore, and all the input given by the older players seem to be ignored for the small vocal 13 year old crowd that love EA games.

GIT GUD mentality shows a lack of maturity.

Additionally if people notice its easy to tell the new comers who have not supported GGG in the past based on the Badges next to their posts.

Personally the lead DEV needs to be fired, since he is completely tone deaf to the player base.

Agreed OP. There's a lot to like right now but a lot to fix. There's a reason poe took 90% of the market cap of the genre and poe2 making mistakes that the original completely fixed is crazy. It's also so dumb to say poe1 is still there when the current league is 6 months old and they're very obviously going to abandon it in the next 2-3 years since it makes zero sense to have 2 extremely similar games competing with each other. And yes, by virtue of having TWO IN THE NAME it is a sequel, bit a totally different game.

We've seen what happens to game studios seeking the elusive "modern audience," and it would be better to stay with the crowd that wants mathematical depth and complexity over this group that wants to play for the story (lol lmao)

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Pathological#1188 wrote:

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hboi#6131 wrote:

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Shrodin#0981 wrote:

I ask that GGG stay true to their vision instead of kneejerk reacting to feedback.

Also, being a veteran of POE1 doesn't give me more credibility than others. If anything, give more credibility to those that have a plethora of game experience or perhaps their own game design experience.

The reason there is pushback is that people slap on "I have 10k hours of POE1, therefore you should pay more attention to my feedback than someone who never played POE1" when providing their feedback. Even the term POE Veteran is already implying, "pay more attention to me." It's asinine.

Well said. I've learned over the past few days browsing the forum that the poe1 community kind of sucks.

Guess how much the poe1 community cares about your opinion?

Guess who paid for PoE2 development?

Guess who will continue to pay for any ongoing development?

Guess who will NOT pay for ongoing development?

PoE1 went through the same development cycle and discussions as we are seeing now, with the caveat that we didn't have moronic newbies telling ggg to "stick to their vision". GGG had a vision at this stage in PoE1 too - they just aren't stupid, so knew that their vision can only go as far as it doesn't clash with their players' willingness to continue playing the game.

To be clear, I'm not saying "I've paid x, you must listen to me"; I'm saying it's a fact that the paying userbase of PoE1, when the game was slower and more like what PoE2 is currently, steered the game in the direction it is now. There isn't a magical new userbase that will start paying for PoE2 not to do so that didn't exist at this point in PoE1. I'm saying it's stark reality - the hype will die, players will bleed, and the "vision" will give way to reality. This isn't really an opinion, more of an extrapolation of previous experience. We've seen GGG and their vision before, we've seen how it interacts with reality, and we've seen the outcome. It will happen again; the only question is time frame. It's a shame we couldn't launch with a better game in the first place, but it is what it is, and we are where we are. At some point in the future, whether it is months or years, all these stupid pain points that you think are part of the "vision" will melt away in the face of player feedback.

Agreed overall. Ultimately, time will tell.

My 2 cents - personally, I've gone through the campaign (to mid Act 2 Cruel), but not to maps (like mid 50s level). My experience was decent at the start, then slowly now just dropped off. I enjoyed the overall improvements from POE1 (sound, gameplay, gems, etc). However, I felt the "dark souls-like" components to the campaign made it a bit too tedious at times (although overall it's not a bad change). Furthermore, I felt the "game balance" wasn't really there in terms of offense/defense, and has lots of room for improvement. I feel (and some pros agree on this, like Kripparian I believe, etc) that no matter how much you put into defense (armor, life, resis, etc), you'll still get 1-shot -- so why build any defense? That's where the balance is too one-sided and it removes a critical element of the game, to be able to actual think about your build...now it's just pure offense basically. In terms of end-game/maps, again, I never got there in PoE2, but I did for PoE1 (where I did mapping a bit) -- it's just not really what I'm looking for.

I felt there were quite a few parallels to Diablo II in terms of setting and some other aspects (Act 2/3, in particular). I enjoyed that part but perhaps it was more nostalgia than anything. However, I do also remember that D2 was fun to replay and go through the campaign again. With PoE2, I just don't really feel the same way unfortunately (yes it's Early Access, but I still think some of the things mentioned in this thread are just too much to change). Several reasons would include perhaps the difficulty (still feel too many possibilities of "1-shots" in the game, and elemental aid mechanics like bleed, etc are a bit much, when there are very few ways to actually defend against it, with too few defense passive nodes, etc) and map size where D2 had a good balance in both aspects (where I remember many would replay the campaign during each ladder reset again and again -- one where I doubt will happen for PoE2 player base). Again, a large part was the aforementioned things above previously. I do feel D2 was a masterpiece and to be able to recreate an improved version of it would be an insane feat in itself. Of course, PoE2 is not necessarily trying to do that, but I guess that was what I personally was looking for. Though, again, if PoE2 campaign replayability improves just like in D2 then I do believe the game's longevity would increase for the player-base -- for now, I don't think players would replay the campaign and also not many for maps either (whole other discussion there from the PoE1 map veterans). Another bonus from D2 I remember was "speed-running" the game with friends to help them level up their characters fast. In PoE2, it's still possible but the setting for "party experience" has to be disabled in order to do this, but at the expense of the party experience -- while in D2, this trade-off was non-existent so it would be much more fun to speed-run your friends through the game, hence increasing more replayability -- again, now there's no real incentive other than to beat a boss, but with no experience during the run. Moreover, the "party scaling" was much more "balanced" in D2 I feel than in PoE2 and playing in parties for PoE2 is much less fun than it was in D2 -- again, this hurts PoE2 game longevity/replayability.

I really don't have any belief that the above will change at all in terms of patching, etc. In the end, I feel it's difficult to design a game that caters to everyone of course. So, I say just enjoy it for what you can (personally, I enjoyed the time overall but I don't think the game has any longevity for me). Good luck and have fun.

Why it has to be black or white? You can enjoy the game and have criticism. What is annoying, however, is constantly reading rants made by people who believe they understand the game better than the developers and want it changed to satisfy their needs. Obviously, the vast majority of said rants want the game to be easier or more like PoE 1 (meaning to lose its identity). Which is not good feedback.

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Kraythax#2592 wrote:

"git gud" crowd of newcomers

Only in PoE will someone who needs to be told by noobs to git gud call themselves a veteran and pride themselves on sucking at the game they're a "veteran" at.

And only in PoE will someone who professionally hates on a company's product call himself a "supporter", while bashing those who enjoy the product and actively dragging it through the mud and review bombing it for 3 weeks straight, while still boasting about how much money they spent only so they can professionally hate ("support") the company.

Make it make sense.

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Avindor#4128 wrote:

I agree with the OP 100%

The game feels very much like a chore, and all the input given by the older players seem to be ignored for the small vocal 13 year old crowd that love EA games.

GIT GUD mentality shows a lack of maturity.

Additionally if people notice its easy to tell the new comers who have not supported GGG in the past based on the Badges next to their posts.

Personally the lead DEV needs to be fired, since he is completely tone deaf to the player base.

The Game is unfinished. Of course it's going to feel like a chore right now. Early Access.. That's the point.

Older players have PoE 1. It's not that your opinions are invalid, or not being listened to. But the reality is. You are what's left after 12 years in PoE 1. Your viewpoint on what the game should be, is shaped by that experience.

There are tons of systems and mechanics that you've gotten used to, or learnt about after hundreds of hours. That you might think are good. But for most, aren't, and are infact, reasons why the game was unable to maintain more players over the years.

Not everyone needs a badge to be a supporter of this game. I never bought any of the packs, but I've still spent a couple hundred on this game in terms of micro transactions inside it.

Ah yes, Fire the lead dev because he's not listening to me and my badges, right? lol.. Unreal.

You do realize, everyone in this EA, has bought it, right? Get used to it.

Newcomers asking POE 1 veterans to stfu and "git good" just shows the state POE 1 is in. Your regular POE 1 enjoyer blasting through maps with one hand on the mouse while watching a movie on their second monitor is not a meme, it's the reality. I mean look at how much hate T17 maps got. The community is absolutely not accustomed to things actually challenging them.

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Kraythax#2592 wrote:

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hboi#6131 wrote:

You're a veteran of following build guides from your favorite youtuber that you don't understand and quitting at level 86 when things start to get challenging.

I am a single father of 3 and VP of engineering with an insane schedule. I am not an "elite" gamer. I dont watch youtube build guides very much except maybe to see some ideas. I play SSF 90% of the time (Solo Self Found meaning you cant trade or group for all you newbies). I have also played Hardcore and Ruthless a lot which there are few if any build guides for. I do my own thing. And you continue your history of just trying to insult people whom you do not actually know rather than offer any meaningful content.

Congratulations, here is your medal.

Apparently being "a single father of 3 and a VP of engineering with an insane schedule" isn't enough to keep you from throwing tantrums about a game.

And both the behaviour and the writing totally don't suggest a 12 year old teenager.

Shameful behaviour.

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Johny_Snow#4778 wrote:

Newcomers asking POE 1 veterans to stfu and "git good" just shows the state POE 1 is in. Your regular POE 1 enjoyer blasting through maps with one hand on the mouse while watching a movie on their second monitor is not a meme, it's the reality. I mean look at how much hate T17 maps got. The community is absolutely not accustomed to things actually challenging them.

Well. Part of that is repetition. When I play any game enough, I can have a show on in the background, and I barely have to pay attention to the game to do well in it.

PoE is also just a very easy game by comparison. You have builds that explode whole maps. And once you get a certain amount of gear. Most people are unkillable unless they're running a really really difficult mod or boss.

But yes, They do need to git gud. The reality is, they now have to pay more attention to the game and can't facetank all the bosses/content.

I really think GGG needs to fully commit to making this a more detail oriented, position oriented, good feeling combat game. That people have to pay attention to, or die in. Not another PoE 1 clone.

It feels good to be engaged in the game. I just want some more unique build capability here. A better way of them doing skills, and some more polish put into combat, and I think people will start to see the games separate at that point, and realize it's a different type of fun.

But it wont happen if they start adding more crafting and more end-game stuff to appease the 'veterans'.