Listening to the whiners opened Pandora's box

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Auralysist#4050 wrote:

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TheAlmightyZugs#5016 wrote:

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Auralysist#4050 wrote:

This isn't about drop rates. You're conflating two things into one and using the weakest to support you're argument. And it was a bait and switch. Not intentional imo - they just knee jerked reacted to crying feedback because they've never made a game like this before. It's meant to be difficult and that's not going to be for everyone. The mistake was changing their minds for the difficulty and overall feel for the game - not changing their mind on more loot drops.

PoE 1 released as a difficult game, I would argue, more difficult than PoE2 ever was back in the Beta. GGG has a lot of experience with difficulty and understanding the appeal of it, the handling of it and the importance of loosening it when necessary. They have over a decade of experience in game development. You on the other hand are a person who plays games but is only viewing from a very narrow scope, same with OP.

I would say the exact same back at you. POE 1 is not POE 2. The games are different and are meant to be different. GGG made decisions with POE 1 back when they did and the game became what the game became. Making the same decisions with POE 2 would be like repeating history and having the same result. We need a different result for a different game.

You are very much missing what I'm saying. You said GGG has never "made a game like this before." But they have, and over the years they have learned a lot from releasing a game like this. That sort of experience helps them make informed decisions on how to handle feedback and when to address changes for the difficulty. I think it's fine to express your opinions if you're upset with a change, but these types of changes were expected and more might happen down the road. It's essentially an accelerated version of how they handled PoE1 but it's not with the intent of remaking PoE1, it's about finding the right balance for player enjoyment and retention. It's a constant adjustment and a very necessary part of the process of making a game successful in the long run, which is what they want and what everyone wants for them to do. [/quote]

But they haven't attempted a game like this, and that's the point. Again, POE 2 from the offset had a specific vision. That was not the same vision for POE 1 originally or otherwise. And POE 1 became what it became and fostered it's own identity. POE 2 in it's vision was and is a completely different beast than POE 1 ever was. This is what you're missing. The game is supposed to be hard. Challenging. Punishing. That's the point. If they make the same "balance" decisions for "player enjoyment and retention" that they made in POE 1 (which they are) - then they're making the same game. They're taking the same left turn at the fork in the road that they did with POE 1. They need to go right otherwise there was never any point at releasing a new game because the audience will be the exact same people.

Wait till you see the endgame. Then you will have a different opinion on loot. This change was necessary. You can not progress the endgame with some rares dropping.

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Fae_Lyth#6750 wrote:

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Mr_Vagtastic#4761 wrote:

So is GGG a competent studio capable of making your dream game or are they a company that shoots from the hip and makes decisions with no data to back it up?

They are a great studio that released a great game, but caved in too quickly for 10 people who died once to a boss and immediately took to forums to complain about "difficulty" and to their ridiculous demands to change it beyond recognition, ignoring the majority of the players who were amazed by and in love with the game as is.

Keep neglecting that they have the data, not just feedback. You're the minority lol. If you can't accept reality, fine, but you don't have to reply to me with the same rhetoric constantly. I trust that GGG can make decisions based on data, Chris Wilson loves data. I'm sure they know how to filter feedback to find the true majority perspective. Your point of view gives the company none of the credit they deserve.

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Mr_Vagtastic#4761 wrote:

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Mr_Vagtastic#4761 wrote:

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TheAlmightyZugs#5016 wrote:

Hi everyone,

Can't agree with this more. Such a self defeating practice imo. For those of us who were actually playing and enjoying the game - we come back to all of these changes for the people that popped in for an hour - were killed by a boss and then went to the forums. They didn't face the challenge and improve - they folded the moment a challenge was presented.

I say a poll would be great, maybe a wakeup call for GGG. Cannot agree more that I hope it doesn't devolve into POE 1 - what a waste that would be.

Ding ding, the poll results are in: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3611705

Conflating a patch made due to excessive crying has nothing to do with what we're talking about. I agree with some of the changes and improvements, not with the current abysmal state of difficulty in the game. We need a mass poll with specifics.

So is GGG a competent studio capable of making your dream game or are they a company that shoots from the hip and makes decisions with no data to back it up?[/quote]

GGG is an absolutely competent studio for the type of game they have made thus far. POE 2 is a different type of game, and their decisions going forward will show us whether they are competent on multiple spectrums or only one. The decisions they have been making, show me that they are new to going in the direction they said they would be going in with POE 2 and actually sticking to it. All decisions made for POE 1 throughout it's life cycle have been made for a specific audience. Now, they have a new audience and a potential for new players with obvious overlap from the original game. But making the same decisions they made for POE 1 would be literally creating a clone of POE 1. Which is what they seem to be doing. Or at worst, creating a braindead game like D3/D4.

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TheAlmightyZugs#5016 wrote:

But they haven't attempted a game like this, and that's the point. Again, POE 2 from the offset had a specific vision. That was not the same vision for POE 1 originally or otherwise. And POE 1 became what it became and fostered it's own identity. POE 2 in it's vision was and is a completely different beast than POE 1 ever was. This is what you're missing. The game is supposed to be hard. Challenging. Punishing. That's the point. If they make the same "balance" decisions for "player enjoyment and retention" that they made in POE 1 (which they are) - then they're making the same game. They're taking the same left turn at the fork in the road that they did with POE 1. They need to go right otherwise there was never any point at releasing a new game because the audience will be the exact same people.

There's no point in arguing with me over this. I'm not GGG and neither are you, nor do you have the data or information that they have or the over a decade worth of game development knowledge. But I doubt that GGG wants to alienate it's original audience or it's new audience, they're probably attempting to find the right balance, as I said. Also seriously, PoE 1 beta was very much intended to be punishing and challenging, most people didn't make it past Merveil. Their vision hasn't changed, but the game is going to change, the balance will absolutely shift in this game, that's inevitable, that's why it's Early Access. It doesn't mean it's going to become PoE 1, I doubt that would ever happen, but it will find a comfortable medium for the largest amount of players who will want to be come back every league.

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Fae_Lyth#6750 wrote:

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Mr_Vagtastic#4761 wrote:

So is GGG a competent studio capable of making your dream game or are they a company that shoots from the hip and makes decisions with no data to back it up?

They are a great studio that released a great game, but caved in too quickly for 10 people who died once to a boss and immediately took to forums to complain about "difficulty" and to their ridiculous demands to change it beyond recognition, ignoring the majority of the players who were amazed by and in love with the game as is.

They gave fools too much power, and those same fools will keep coming back for more ridiculous demands now that that door has been opened.

+2 to this.

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fish23872#3028 wrote:

Wait till you see the endgame. Then you will have a different opinion on loot. This change was necessary. You can not progress the endgame with some rares dropping.

Loot was necessary. Difficulty was not.

Its a shame, genre is to popular and influenced by streamers.they will force out the souls like, becasue the are entitled and want to control everything.

Hopefully they stay strong, but d4 got forced to turn it into d3 slop.

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Mr_Vagtastic#4761 wrote:

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TheAlmightyZugs#5016 wrote:

So is GGG a competent studio capable of making your dream game or are they a company that shoots from the hip and makes decisions with no data to back it up?

GGG is an absolutely competent studio for the type of game they have made thus far. POE 2 is a different type of game, and their decisions going forward will show us whether they are competent on multiple spectrums or only one. The decisions they have been making, show me that they are new to going in the direction they said they would be going in with POE 2 and actually sticking to it. All decisions made for POE 1 throughout it's life cycle have been made for a specific audience. Now, they have a new audience and a potential for new players with obvious overlap from the original game. But making the same decisions they made for POE 1 would be literally creating a clone of POE 1. Which is what they seem to be doing. Or at worst, creating a braindead game like D3/D4.

So if you don't like it, but it does well, they're incompetent? Got it. They don't owe any of us "sticking to" anything. We have a very different game from PoE, that still has a sub fraction of all the games you listed loot-wise. We know historically they're not going to revert the loot change. The vocal minority that wants that got outvoted. Most other changes have been nerfs. Yet you think the direction they're going is bad? They know exactly how many new players they have and were losing, their data said loot was losing too many. They fixed that and now the game is teetering on destruction? Doesn't seem like you have much if any faith.

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Mr_Vagtastic#4761 wrote:

So is GGG a competent studio capable of making your dream game or are they a company that shoots from the hip and makes decisions with no data to back it up?

Yes.




In all seriousness they quite often mix both of those. Its a mixed bag.