10% XP loss Death Penalty Feedback!

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obtenebration0113#3459 wrote:

"That's all we're seeing here. Ego's feeling threatened, and then the same people going around insulting, and invalidating the opinions of others, because they're unable to step outside their worldview."

I agree with what you said completely.

I'll even go one step further.

These elitists/veterans are not even as good as they would have you believe.
There are threads of POE veterans with thousands of hours complaining about the difficulty of the campaign. The campaign is breaking them.

Not Atlas.

Not Waystones.

Not juiced maps.

Not Pinnacle bosses.

They cannot even get through the campaign.

They have not even reached the level wherein the Death XP Penalty becomes a problem.

People are loudest about what they are not.

People are loudest about what they have not.

As a level 91 Titan, first-time POE player but longtime player of much more difficult, challenging and rewarding games, I see these elitists for what they are:

1. Scared
2. Arrogant
3. Entitled
4. Desperate to convince others of their superiority

But if you're actually good, you don't need to belittle others. You don't need to insult others. You just get on with your day, being good at whatever you've worked hard on to develop the experiene and skills for.

I'll keep supporting this game being challenging without punitive and frustrating systems. These systems, as they are, will actually kill this game to a wider audience. I would love to see as many people as possible of all different experience and skill levels enjoying this game, even if it's challenging at times.

I'll keep doing everything I can to embolden and empower people, especially newcomers, to voice their opinions even in the face of such toxic insecurity from the "veterans".

That's all it is: insecurity.

Elitists: We see you. You're not "that guy".
Newcomers: Keep speaking your truth. We're here for you.

Most people don't do this stuff intentionally. It's just an automatic defensive response for most.

Until they realize this is what the issue is though, they're not going to be able to take steps to fix it.

I too, want this game to be challenging, without punitive and frustrating systems.

I've played so many games, and I see this sort of stuff in so many of them. There's nothing wrong with a bit of friction to help keep players engaged. Challenges are good, but a system like this is just a straight up knee to the nuts for most players, and then a kick to the face after they fall to the ground.

I think it should be optional, or reworked into something better. That way both parties are happy. I just know from my perspective, that these deaths are frustrating enough to have me quit the game.

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auspexa#1404 wrote:

cheese 1 shot mechanics and on death effects that are impossible to see?

then why do I have zero deaths betweeen level 85-91 although I'm farming T18 maps?

improve your build and it won't be an issue

You're very good at this game to have Zero deaths. I'm impressed.

What makes you think that the issue is based on builds, or skill though?

While I enjoy the game much more than PoE1, the death penalty makes be quit each time for a few hours, after dying. In PoE1, a death would be my quitting the season at some point. Let's leave this mechanic for PoE1. Here, there are several layers of punishment for dying, on top of each other.

I am glad that they gave up on locking us out of a node entirely. I wonder who had the idea on the first place.

The issue with the death penalty is also in the fact that XP grind is too slow. If there wasn't such a crawl after Level 90, it wouldn't be a problem. For example, Grim Dawn has a death penalty system but even the last level is not so unreasonably hard to get, thus nobody complains.

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xxn1927#3319 wrote:

While I enjoy the game much more than PoE1, the death penalty makes be quit each time for a few hours, after dying. In PoE1, a death would be my quitting the season at some point. Let's leave this mechanic for PoE1. Here, there are several layers of punishment for dying, on top of each other.

I am glad that they gave up on locking us out of a node entirely. I wonder who had the idea on the first place.

The issue with the death penalty is also in the fact that XP grind is too slow. If there wasn't such a crawl after Level 90, it wouldn't be a problem. For example, Grim Dawn has a death penalty system but even the last level is not so unreasonably hard to get, thus nobody complains.

It's usually half the reason I quit too. The other half being the forced economy once you hit end-game, Have to craft, or trade to progress, and you can spend quite a bit of of time farming maps just to afford an item, if you're late to the end-game.

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Hyperspacing#5593 wrote:

Hi average player here...it doesn't bother me at all cause I don't blame the game for me dying. I died...i deserve a penalty cause I goofed...

Ho, hey, look ! : a normaly functionning adult !

He is playing the game, having fun, and improving himself and his character without ever blaming the game (that he chose to play) for wasting his time (that he chose to spend willingly) when he messes up and dies.

Learn from him, guys, it's going to make your life much, much, easier. It may teach you how to not bruise your fragile egos touching base game designs.

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dwqrf#0717 wrote:

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Hyperspacing#5593 wrote:

Hi average player here...it doesn't bother me at all cause I don't blame the game for me dying. I died...i deserve a penalty cause I goofed...

Ho, hey, look ! : a normaly functionning adult !

He is playing the game, having fun, and improving himself and his character without ever blaming the game (that he chose to play) for wasting his time (that he chose to spend willingly) when he messes up and dies.

Learn from him, guys, it's going to make your life much, much, easier. It may teach you how to not bruise your fragile egos touching base game designs.

Excuse me, maybe you can answer a question for me.

You speak of Bruised, Fragile Ego's. Maybe you can clear the air for me. What sort of person inserts themselves into every thread they can with the topic of XP loss on death, in an attempt to shame and invalidate everyone in that thread that doesn't agree with them? I've been seeing a lot of it the last few days. Just wondering if you had a perspective on the issue. You seem to be pretty knowledgable on the topic of XP loss on Death, and ego's.

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Akedomo#3573 wrote:

Excuse me, maybe you can answer a question for me.

You speak of Bruised, Fragile Ego's. Maybe you can clear the air for me. What sort of person inserts themselves into every thread they can with the topic of XP loss on death, in an attempt to shame and invalidate everyone in that thread that doesn't agree with them? I've been seeing a lot of it the last few days. Just wondering if you had a perspective on the issue. You seem to be pretty knowledgable on the topic of XP loss on Death, and ego's.

Have you considered not being so hurt by "death in a video game" forcing your hand to rally a mob to burn down GGG forums with your hatred disguising your entitlment and self-disapointment ?

It's healthy. Works also for many things in life.

It's not the game fault if you die. It's yours. It's not the game fault if you waste your time playing it. It's yours. Deal with the consequences of your own actions.

I'm not here to invalidate any feedback, just trying to show you that what you complain about is only a hurt-feeling point of view you can easily shift by accepting this is the reality of the game you chose to play, and not being happy about the design and trying to change its core mecanics according to some disconnected imagination is much more a waste of time than just leaving it for some other game holding your hand and telling you that everything is going to be allright. Because it isn't this one.

Nobody is happy about dying. Nobody is happy about death penalties. Some people handle it and understand why it exist. Some don't.

Respect yourself. Don't do what's hurting you : change your environment or change your mindset.

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dwqrf#0717 wrote:

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Akedomo#3573 wrote:

Excuse me, maybe you can answer a question for me.

You speak of Bruised, Fragile Ego's. Maybe you can clear the air for me. What sort of person inserts themselves into every thread they can with the topic of XP loss on death, in an attempt to shame and invalidate everyone in that thread that doesn't agree with them? I've been seeing a lot of it the last few days. Just wondering if you had a perspective on the issue. You seem to be pretty knowledgable on the topic of XP loss on Death, and ego's.

Have you considered not being so hurt by "death in a video game" forcing your hand to rally a mob to burn down GGG forums with your hatred disguising your entitlment and self-disapointment ?

It's healthy. Works also for many things in life.

It's not the game fault if you die. It's yours. It's not the game fault if you waste your time playing it. It's yours. Deal with the consequences of your own actions.

I'm not here to invalidate any feedback, just trying to show you that what you complain about is only a hurt-feeling point of view you can easily shift by accepting this is the reality of the game you chose to play, and not being happy about the design and trying to change its core mecanics according to some disconnected imagination is much more a waste of time than just leaving it for some other game holding your hand and telling you that everything is going to be allright. Because it isn't this one.

Nobody is happy about dying. Nobody is happy about death penalties. Some people handle it and understand why it exist. Some don't.

Respect yourself. Don't do what's hurting you : change your environment or change your mindset.

The speech is slowly changing. At first it was the scholar "this game mechanic is essential to the game", now it's the grumpy life coach. You should take a break from the subject. You just need to understand that the game is better for people with no XP penalty and for others it's essential. We can't convince you and you can't convince us.

It's just like real life politics :
To us you're the mega rich who wants to keep us into poverty while profiting from us at every step of the way.
To you we're a bunch of lazy idiots who just want everything without working for it, and it's not fair for you because you worked hard to get where you are.

Now if you agree with the comparison you can understand why arguing is a dead end.

+1

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PhillipBurns#5461 wrote:

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KubaLy#4534 wrote:

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V4ldaran#3607 wrote:

POE1 also had it, and it was fine there, getting to level 100 should be something special.

Death should have a consequence, even on softcore.

I don't think it should have any consequence in SOFTCORE. This subject is 100% personal preference rather than a statement of universal truth.

However, if the XP penalty was removed there would still be many other penalties present. Even without the XP loss there is still a lot of consequence for character death on softcore.


And if the XP loss is such a good idea, why isn't it present in the campaign? I started the campaign on softcore, I had no XP loss during the campaign, then why do I suddenly get more punishment for the exact same game mechanics? It seems like sloppy design.

Also, how many times should the player be punished for one death? Should there be one penalty? Two different penalties? Maybe three? How many is too little and how many is too much, becouse right now we lose:

- map juice
- boss attempt
- unpicked loot
- 10% XP

It seems to me that four penalties (maybe more that I didn't think of) for one death is a bit rough for a SOFTCORE game mode. In this thread we're talking only about making it three penalties instead of four, not to remove all penalties altogether.

I'd add

- amount of time lost from my real life -10%

Exactly this. Every death costs me about 15-30 minutes of my LIFETIME.
Even on my spark build with 5k ES and 5k Mana I still get oneshotted or perma CCed into death or even on map spawn get trapped. I started to automatically pause and log out/go to char screen before dying, because no current penalty is as costly as loosing 15-30 minutes of my LIFETIME.


I don't care about any other penalty, but the XP is only thing that I FARM, that SHOWS how much time I invested. Loot and maps are all RNG and Rarity, but XP is GRIND and LIFETIME SPENT.

IMO should never be removed as penalty, but as somewhere else mentioned, you could only loose XP Gained during the map attempt, which would be way more fair than loosing 10%. As others mentioned, you only get so few XP because the tiers of the map dont scale as high as char level.

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dwqrf#0717 wrote:

Have you considered not being so hurt by "death in a video game" forcing your hand to rally a mob to burn down GGG forums with your hatred disguising your entitlment and self-disapointment ?

I'm not sure why you think I'm hurt. What has you believing this about me?

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dwqrf#0717 wrote:

It's healthy. Works also for many things in life.

Oh, I agree. Focusing on an issue, and being negative about it. Tends to be a very unhealthy thing to do. You're totally right on this.

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dwqrf#0717 wrote:

It's not the game fault if you die. It's yours. It's not the game fault if you waste your time playing it. It's yours. Deal with the consequences of your own actions.

Of course. You're completely right. If you die in a video game, it's totally your fault in most cases. There are sometimes one-shots and lag spikes that happen, but other than that, you're completely right.

What makes think players are blaming the game in regards to this though?

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dwqrf#0717 wrote:

I'm not here to invalidate any feedback, just trying to show you that what you complain about is only a hurt-feeling point of view you can easily shift by accepting this is the reality of the game you chose to play

Oh, well. I didn't know that. I'm sorry for assuming.

But, would you allow me to share my perspective on something?

For me, I don't complain about XP loss on Death because I'm not skilled enough to manage the mechanic. It's because I have a limited amount of time to play. And if my Cat jumps up on my keyboard in the middle of a gaming session. I can lose a few hours of playtime just from that alone. Can you see how that would be a frustrating experience for someone? To be playing for 3 hours, and then a momentary interruption causes you to lose all that progress.

My cat is always jumping up on my keyboard to get attention. She constantly gets me killed in video games because of it. She just wants some love, so it doesn't frustrate me, but it also can limit the games I can enjoy, and how I can play.

She really likes to shove her butt in my face as often as she possibly can. It can make gaming quite difficult :(

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dwqrf#0717 wrote:

and not being happy about the design and trying to change its core mecanics according to some disconnected imagination is much more a waste of time than just leaving it for some other game holding your hand and telling you that everything is going to be allright. Because it isn't this one.

Why do you think people being unhappy, isn't worth consideration for balance?

What makes you think people want the game to hand-hold for them? I see people arguing that XP loss on death is a frustrating mechanic. Not that they want an easier game. Maybe you can share your perspective on this.

I'll just tell you, for me, I actually want the game to remain difficult and challenging, and I just feel there's better ways to do it, aside from XP loss on death. I've seen many of the ways other games can offer challenges to players in ways that feel good, rather than punishing.

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dwqrf#0717 wrote:

Nobody is happy about dying. Nobody is happy about death penalties. Some people handle it and understand why it exist. Some don't.

Oh, I agree. I never liked dying. It's always the worst part of a game for me.

Have you ever played a video game that you had to save the game for? Like Skyrim, or something. And you played for 4 or 5 hours, without realizing you didn't save, and then you died.

Man. Those deaths are the worst. Realizing you didn't have a save file and you suddenly lost all progress. Super frustrating. I've even had it happen when a game freezes on me or crashes. Oh man :(

I usually just end up closing the game out of frustration when a death happens in that sort of situation. No one likes dying, and especially when they lose hours of progress on a game to a small mistake, or a bug or crash. I agree with you.

Have you ever had an experience like that in a video game? A save file corruption, or just forgetting to save for a few hours, and then the game crashes? I think most gamers have experienced it at least a few times.

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dwqrf#0717 wrote:

Respect yourself. Don't do what's hurting you : change your environment or change your mindset.

Yup! You're right. A lot of people need to learn to respect themselves more. I totally agree.

For me, the area that I was working on in terms of self respect, was wasting less of my time. I had a lot of unhealthy things in my life that I wasted time on, and I justified it however I could.

I had to change my mindset to understand that what I was doing was unhealthy, and not helping me. And then I stopped engaging with these things. I tried to warn others about the unhealthy behaviors in hopes of helping others too, but alas, when I tried. It was usually ignored.

It's unfortunate, but you're completely right. Sometimes you just need to change your environment, or your mindset in regards to something. Especially when you're being hurt.