D4 no gud, send me poe2 thx

Well, DLing the Login Simulator atm. No need to downplay the moment: it's been a decade since I played a new Diablo game and close to 3 since I really enjoyed one. I could despise it and still recognise the significance of the moment. But I suspect I won't despise it so that's enough for me.

Re PoE 4.0's main change, the gem linking shift: as I have said before, that is something I know GGG would have made a top priority were they to make a second PoE game. So when I saw it pop as a feature of rhe expansion I was neither surprised nor all that impressed. It was like seeing a great idea for a movie sequel being shoehorned into a lower budget spinoff tv series. Glad it happened, but it really deserved a new game to flex its potential. Changing the gem system within PoE as it is takes the Ship of Theseus metaphor to new levels. They will pull it off but I will never not wonder why, with such a grand sellout, they didn't just build a new ship. Oh wait, mtxes in PoE "1". Riiiight. See my signature.

Diablo IV is a new ARPG. It already has that much of an advantage over an old one that has lasted longer than most MMOs. To put it into context, no one would have accepted any form of expansion or update to Diablo 3 as "Diablo IV". Admittedly that's due in part to D3 being far less committed to being a GaaS than PoE, but then again not even FFXIV has had the temerity to call any of its epic expansions FFXV Online (not even before that misfire of a road trip was out). So you may cry semantics, I will respond, words shape meaning and meaning shapes perception. And perception is always more influential on reality than anyone wants to admit. This is oddly as true now in the age of "alternative facts" and "gaslighting" as it was when most people didn't travel further than a few villages in their entire lives. Whoever has the power to arbitrate language and meaning has the responsibility not to use that power deceitfully.

Diablo IV is a new game.

Path of Exile 2 is not a new game.

You all know these two facts but I guarantee the magic of marketing language will wear down your ability to fully appreciate the implication of those facts. And it goes both ways here: Diablo IV is a new game following a pretty bad one that had to make up a lot of ground to get out of the dog house, and for many Diablo veterans it never did. Path of Exile 4.0 is an expansion to an existing game that is incredibly well regarded and so has to do a lot less lifting out of the gate. It will always have its apologists and fans based purely on that.

And that is also why the DIV/PoE 4.0 comparisons really fall flat to me. They aren't the same thing unless you allow the marketing tell you they are. I find it amusing how painfully brilliant Exiles can be and yet how easily they have swallowed a fairly blatant misrepresentation whole. We all believe what we want to believe, I guess.

It's a silly argument because for Exiles the comparison isn't DIV vs PoE 4.0 -- it's just DIV vs PoE and once you position it like that there is almost no comparison at all. Would people be doing this if GGG had introduced and marketed 4.0 as the mega expansion it really is and not 'Path of Exile 2'? Of course not. It would then be DIV vs PoE and PoE would win for anyone who already plays PoE beyond casual engagement. Every time.

This whole mess is down to GGG marketing shitting their non-existent pants over Diablo IV, which they 100% knew about before anyone not in the industry for fairly obvious reasons.

You think I am being finicky or pedantic over this? Maybe. I only wasted almost a decade of my life studying the effect of words on the world, usually on people who had no idea that they were being manipulated by something as seemingly innocuous as a choice of words. To this day we are learning how WRONG we have been about history simply because those who wrote of it had an agenda. Not necessarily the victors, but certainly the accepted conveyors of historical authenticity.

So yeah, when I see it happening in real time, I am a little vexed. Especially when it happens to people with the faculties to see it for themselves.

History is not going to see Path of Exile "2" as a legitimate competitor or replacement for Diablo IV. Not the way the new game PoE competed with and eventually overthrew another new game at the time, Diablo 3. In fact, Diablo IV's insane prepurchase beta participation numbers (1 million+) indicate that to the general gaming populace who don't have time or inclination to become Exiles, Diablo IV is the first new ARPG worth a damn since...Diablo 3.

It only has to be better than Diablo 3 to be a success. I don't think it has any problems there.

Path of Exile "2" has every chance of becoming a victim of its own presumptive marketing. If it lands without the feeling of a sequel, of a new game, then what I call a lie will be proven. People will prevaricate and treat goalposts like dance partners but they will know in their hearts that the "2" was not warranted.

But if Path of Exile "2" comes out and makes a significant portion of existing players of Diablo IV change their minds, then and only then will we be able to say that Path of Exile "2" will have done its job sufficiently as a marketing ploy.

Because if it comes out and the needle doesn't really move, then why call it a sequel at all? Exiles will play it regardless and they hardly need their updates packaged with much hype. Warframe goes to far more effort packaging and hyping its expansions/updates and they are FAR more ambitious than anything PoE has delivered in years. Just as an example; no need to let the comparison go beyond that.

Oh. Download finished. Okies, back to TittyCue.

Edit: oh wow that got long for a phone post. Sorry.

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

*Easier to snip*

I was half inclined to respond with just Potassium to poke fun at the long post but decided the internet is a terrible medium for those types of jokes because you can't see the big shit-eating grin on the other side.

I 100% agree that the POE 2 fiasco was a terrible idea and it's at best confusing, and at worst fooled people into believing it is literally a new game. Some of us are involved enough in the game to know the difference and it does feel like just semantics, particularly on this board. In the broader sense though it is a terrible idea because people will come for 4.0 thinking it's a new game and be confused about it being linked to the *old game*.

I do see POE and Diablo as different now. There is overlap for sure, but their target audiences are drastically different. As much as people around this forum and other places will act like the two paths are on an intersect course, I view them as two discernably different paths heading in different directions. To be fair though, calling them both a path isn't quite accurate. Diablo is more a superhighway servicing a larger group while POE is a backwoods road heading into the countryside for the few that want to go that way.

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Nubatron wrote:

I view them as two discernably different paths heading in different directions. To be fair though, calling them both a path isn't quite accurate. Diablo is more a superhighway servicing a larger group while POE is a backwoods road heading into the countryside for the few that want to go that way.

just like gaming.

gaming used to be played by nerds who didnt mind spending time to solve problems, and was looked down upon

now gaming is in the pocket of everyone, and capitalism dictates success=profit

niche games that are AAA are almost impossible to find

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Nubatron wrote:

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

*Easier to snip*

I was half inclined to respond with just Potassium to poke fun at the long post but decided the internet is a terrible medium for those types of jokes because you can't see the big shit-eating grin on the other side.

I 100% agree that the POE 2 fiasco was a terrible idea and it's at best confusing, and at worst fooled people into believing it is literally a new game. Some of us are involved enough in the game to know the difference and it does feel like just semantics, particularly on this board. In the broader sense though it is a terrible idea because people will come for 4.0 thinking it's a new game and be confused about it being linked to the *old game*.

I do see POE and Diablo as different now. There is overlap for sure, but their target audiences are drastically different. As much as people around this forum and other places will act like the two paths are on an intersect course, I view them as two discernably different paths heading in different directions. To be fair though, calling them both a path isn't quite accurate. Diablo is more a superhighway servicing a larger group while POE is a backwoods road heading into the countryside for the few that want to go that way.

Na.

Btw Counterstrike 2. Oh man as if this argument needed any more angles. My gut is oddly comfortable with this "2" for some reason. I will put more thought into it but for now just say I find CS' planned upgrades more deserving of its 2...maybe just because it doesn't seem like a marketing ploy. Is it? I dunno.

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

Is it? I dunno.

Well, it's sort of the same in my eyes. Valve called it "a free upgrade". Hell, some media even go as far as calling it an "engine port" (Source->Source2). You're keeping your MTX - and the gameplay will be pretty much the same.

While we can all agree that PoE 2 isn't a new game, I really don't get the 'hate' over the name decision in today's gaming landscape. Maybe I'm not experienced enough in the gaming industry, but the updates in what we've seen so far regarding graphics, animations, physics, story and general looks of the game? I can't really think of a single "expansion" changing a game that much (I welcome being corrected here, because I honestly do not know).

Ignoring the visual and physics upgrades, and focusing only on the gameplay/mechanics changes as reasons for "PoE 2" being an unfair name, while calling FPS games "more deserving" - when the gameplay is pretty much the same between each 'iteration', is somewhat strange in my eyes.

OP doesn't come across as truthful. The fact they titled their post 'D4 no gud, send me poe2 thx' suggests they aren't serious.

I appreciate the inverted commas around hate there. Very important.

Everquest did something like it actually, and I don't mean II (which most EQ diehards viewed with disdain but in hindsight did pretty well). Full graphics overhaul, and some mechanical changes from memory. And even though PoE 4.0 might be doing "more" than any other expansion, that doesn't mean it crosses the threshold from expansion into sequel. It just, and isn't this just so very GGG, raises the bar unfairly high for others. In fact, they could have done just that -- implemented an expansion so big people would be in awe of it, wondering why GGG didn't call it Path of Exile 2. After all, Blizzard had the nerve to call Overwatch 1.5 "Overwatch 2". That would have been OG GGG. The GGG I was so happy to support and champion. Humble and overachieving. But nope. They made the money move and oversold their expansion.

As I was perusing vids today about it, I saw a fairly frequent sentiment that GGG are playing 4D chess (lol) by letting DIV land first, disappoint the masses and THEN they swoop in with the mighty Path of Exile 2. It's an interesting way of ignoring that GGG have trouble releasing a league in one piece let alone possessed of enough luxury to actually react to another game with anything beyond a vague sense of panic (cp2077) but maybe it will turn out just like that. Maybe lightning will strike twice.

Back to CS2. I suspect I just don't know or care enough to challenge that designation but I also have no idea what version they're up to so CS2 suffices. But even if it is a similar situation, I see some pretty hard differences between an FPS and an ARPG as regards progression from one iteration to the next. I fully disagree with Overwatch "2", even though afaik mtxes did not carry over there. And OW went from paid GaaS to f2p, which in my eyes definitely doesn't warrant a "2" so much as a more typical appellation such as Eternal or Infinite or whatever. Given Chris' own words at the GDC, Path of Exile 2 should more accurately be called Path of Exile Forever. Maybe introduce some codpiece mtxes...

Ahanyway, if we didn't see people constantly confusing PoE 4.0 for a new game and asking the same ludicrous questions...almost every day...I would probably be a little less "hateful". If there were some practical reason for the designation beyond hype. And who knows, maybe when it lands it'll be so different it does make sense to have a new name for 4.0...that name still didn't have to be "2".

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

Na.

Btw Counterstrike 2. Oh man as if this argument needed any more angles. My gut is oddly comfortable with this "2" for some reason. I will put more thought into it but for now just say I find CS' planned upgrades more deserving of its 2...maybe just because it doesn't seem like a marketing ploy. Is it? I dunno.

I think I could also respond to this post with Sodium as well, but mostly because I don't play FPS games. The last one I played, and I kid you not, was GoldenEye 007. It was largely responsible for questionable grades in my Freshmen year :)

Was Counterstrike 2 the same as POE 2 in terms of branding but not a new game?

And for the sake of nostalgia...

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

Ahanyway, if we didn't see people constantly confusing PoE 4.0 for a new game and asking the same ludicrous questions...almost every day...I would probably be a little less "hateful". If there were some practical reason for the designation beyond hype. And who knows, maybe when it lands it'll be so different it does make sense to have a new name for 4.0...that name still didn't have to be "2".

So what exactly constitutes a "2" then?

Engine overhaul? Check.
New story? Check.
Completely rework how the game functions? Check
Better AI? Check.

I mean the only thing that is stopping it becoming a "2" is a new end game which they did prior.

I do enjoy PoE. I think they have something pretty unique here in the audience they attract. If I was playing since the early days, I'm sure I would be more apt to actually log in and play more often. As it stands right now, the amount of changes they make and the time between my play sessions, I basically have to gut my character every time I want to play and that can be quite a pain in the rear. This also doesn't take into the consideration the one-shot mechanics that can render hours upon hours of play time, pointless. Also, having to redo your filters every time is quite annoying.

Outside of that, PoE is a fun game. Diablo, on the other hand, I can pick up after a year of not playing and with a few quick checks on any changes, be right back where I was (maybe a few GR's lower just to warm up).

Does that make it not as "deep"? Probably, but I can tell you this, if I had to choose between relatively similar games and one is going to take me 3 hours to get set up to play properly again, while the other might take 5 minutes, you can guess which one I'll choose.

I'll keep my Cyclone Slayer and RF Chieftain going if and when I log back in because I find those two fun (especially RF, he's like the ultimate chill and kill stuff build). My time will mostly be in D4 though.