75% less flask charges is insane

I'm worried about flask uptime against Boss, it is already somewhat bad in a lot of fights now its going to way worse.

I guess I will have to counter flask charge nerf with having 250% MS passively.

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raics wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

Its not a matter of being open to changes, its about not understanding a problem being introduced with the change.

Like I said, I'm down with making adjustments to the system, but without any mechanic to counter some of the issue, 75% reduced is far too much.

I mean, we've been there, if it turns out that the game is impossible to play now they'll do something about it. They just want people to play the game without doing flask piano, I don't think those are mutually exclusive. Hell, I'll go on a limb and say it wouldn't even be that hard to implement, the most work will be about tying the loose ends, not getting the basic functionality.

I was thinking about this some more and its like GGG had a meeting with a white board, asked everyone for idea how they would nerf flask and then just decided to implement all of them without testing.



I mean if flask are suppose to be nice useful buffs you click, but not reliable, then why nerf the power of them, since you know you won't be able to sustain the charges.


At the counter point, if flask are nerfed enough, then getting charges to have them be more reliable should be fine, since you know you've reduced player power.

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goetzjam wrote:

I was thinking about this some more and its like GGG had a meeting with a white board, asked everyone for idea how they would nerf flask and then just decided to implement all of them without testing.

I mean if flask are suppose to be nice useful buffs you click, but not reliable, then why nerf the power of them, since you know you won't be able to sustain the charges.

At the counter point, if flask are nerfed enough, then getting charges to have them be more reliable should be fine, since you know you've reduced player power.

Sure, that would be a great idea if the goal is just to reduce the power of flask piano, and if the goal is to globally nerf the player they don't even have to bother touching the flasks. The main reason they want to remove it is because tapping your flasks every four seconds is annoying, derpy gameplay that the game needs about as much as another fishing joke.

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raics wrote:

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goetzjam wrote:

I was thinking about this some more and its like GGG had a meeting with a white board, asked everyone for idea how they would nerf flask and then just decided to implement all of them without testing.

I mean if flask are suppose to be nice useful buffs you click, but not reliable, then why nerf the power of them, since you know you won't be able to sustain the charges.

At the counter point, if flask are nerfed enough, then getting charges to have them be more reliable should be fine, since you know you've reduced player power.

Sure, that would be a great idea if the goal is just to reduce the power of flask piano, and if the goal is to globally nerf the player they don't even have to bother touching the flasks. The main reason they want to remove it is because tapping your flasks every four seconds is annoying, derpy gameplay that the game needs about as much as another fishing joke.

Its not uncommon in games to have skills or buttons you press every once and a while to get buffs for your character. People joke about how POE is a 1 button game and now we've removed the need to click a number of them potentially.

They could have implemented the conditional and auto flask, without gutting the charges gained for manual use?


I'm just not sure I understand GGG's intention here with having weak, unreliable, triple+ nerfed flask.

What design purpose do they fill?

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goetzjam wrote:

Its not uncommon in games to have skills or buttons you press every once and a while to get buffs for your character. People joke about how POE is a 1 button game and now we've removed the need to click a number of them potentially.

They could have implemented the conditional and auto flask, without gutting the charges gained for manual use?

I'm just not sure I understand GGG's intention here with having weak, unreliable, triple+ nerfed flask.

What design purpose do they fill?

Of course, it isn't uncommon to have buffs, and it isn't uncommon to be able to chain activate them. However, the ones that can be chained are most often longterm, like D2 thunderstorm or energy shield, because you don't activate longterm buffs in response to something, they're supposed to be up all the time and their duration is long so they don't become a chore. Short term buffs are most often on a cooldown longer than their duration or restricted in other ways, you're supposed to activate them in response to something, like seeing a tough enemy, and they tend to be stronger.

So, by keeping the charges as is and reducing the flask power you get the worst of both worlds, you get weak effects you're supposed to keep up by pumping the buttons every few seconds. Design-wise that makes no sense, if they're short term buffs, they should be good, but their use should be restricted in some way. Gotta say I'd prefer if flasks just refilled over time, kill speed varies too much, it can be plus infinity or it can be zero.

Also, I'm thinking that one of their reasons for getting rid of the piano is because they started to add more buff skills and effects recently, and players probably aren't really using them as much as they hoped, because flasks are more reliable and more powerful. I mean, they add steelskin, explicitly say it's a buff you're supposed to activate in response to a big incoming attack in their demonstration, and then they let us put it on cwdt because they know we won't bother. Sure, we can't really see much on the screen at the moment, but if the game becomes slower, we will.

Anyway, even if flasks don't do much in their current state, it isn't the end of the world, they can be altered easily in one direction or another. It could be they just want to see what we'll do without them.

You dont want to accept it: flasks are there to heal you AND provide temporary buffs

Some of us were spoiled AF with that. 40% more damage? 50% more damage? One demand? Several times per boss fight? Yes please.

Spoilage went so far that 'blind everything around you' suddenly feels like shit. Same as 5 seconds of effectively double damage twice per boss fight.

It is not shit. It is STILL great power. And the only real gripe is the duration. 5 seconds is really not enough. Ofc there are various old (and i expect quite few new) tricks to prolong their duration. But till now nobody took them - why would anyone do. Investing in that makes other gearing more difficult. Job done.


Im happy that they gut the perma flasks while mapping. It should weed out garbage chars that were caried by flasks. Perma double damage from BFaith and diamond.. good riddance too. Diamond flask should have had been removed 5 years ago. It is this damaging to the game.

What makes me worry is.. some more unique flasks like Sorrow of the Divine (that i made entire SUCCESSFUL character around) are simply dead with 5 second duration. And if the only way of making flask 'work' is Pathfinder.. then we have a problem because PF simply does not fit all flasks.

In short. Good riddance to unjust power. I dont care, havent piano flasks anyway. Did just fine.

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sidtherat wrote:

In short. Good riddance to unjust power. I dont care, havent piano flasks anyway. Did just fine.

Says the guy that hasn't reached high level on any character (unless you deleted some)



I do wonder what maps with conquerors, sirus influence and all sorts of other fun things are going to entail. If I had to guess lots and lots of deaths.


Whats odd is people are happy that flask are getting gutted because of their offensive power, but many are forgetting that they have been the only defense many builds have had ever since they greatly increased physical damage on monsters a while back.

Damage avoidance is only going to help so much in this game, are we just suppose to accept that we are going to die and go even further into offense now that we have no reliable defensive layers to play around?


I mean they even doing some weird shit like making cast when damage taken require mana spent? So builds that reserve just the right amount of mana for skills or almost all mana and use something like soultaker can't use cwdt without corrupting some jewels or something? Seems insane if you ask me.

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sidtherat wrote:

You dont want to accept it: flasks are there to heal you AND provide temporary buffs

Some of us were spoiled AF with that. 40% more damage? 50% more damage? One demand? Several times per boss fight? Yes please.

Spoilage went so far that 'blind everything around you' suddenly feels like shit. Same as 5 seconds of effectively double damage twice per boss fight.

It is not shit. It is STILL great power. And the only real gripe is the duration. 5 seconds is really not enough. Ofc there are various old (and i expect quite few new) tricks to prolong their duration. But till now nobody took them - why would anyone do. Investing in that makes other gearing more difficult. Job done.


Im happy that they gut the perma flasks while mapping. It should weed out garbage chars that were caried by flasks. Perma double damage from BFaith and diamond.. good riddance too. Diamond flask should have had been removed 5 years ago. It is this damaging to the game.

What makes me worry is.. some more unique flasks like Sorrow of the Divine (that i made entire SUCCESSFUL character around) are simply dead with 5 second duration. And if the only way of making flask 'work' is Pathfinder.. then we have a problem because PF simply does not fit all flasks.

In short. Good riddance to unjust power. I dont care, havent piano flasks anyway. Did just fine.

If you haven't piano flasks then you were playing the game wrong way, sorry but it true. Or you were just doing easy content.

In every damn build flasks were the integral part of it.
If you would show me a good build without specific set of flasks for it maybe i would believe this statement. Game was balanced around having 100% flask up time while mapping.

If they would balance that you actually don't need them all the time i would be fine with it, but i doubt that will be the case. I expect a lot more deaths to happen in future.

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goetzjam wrote:

I mean they even doing some weird shit like making cast when damage taken require mana spent? So builds that reserve just the right amount of mana for skills or almost all mana and use something like soultaker can't use cwdt without corrupting some jewels or something? Seems insane if you ask me.

If their build doesn’t function anymore then they clearly haven’t reserved “just the right amount of mana”, they’ve reserved the wrong amount of mana. Patches requiring people to adjust the way they play isn’t insane, it’s normal.