75% less flask charges is insane

"

raics wrote:

"

goetzjam wrote:

So flask are just something you might have up, might not. Who needs utility or defense from flask, right?

My very personal take on the issue, is that if a game allows you to have your flasks up all the time I'm calling that dumb design, and if it's also expected of you to do it that's doubly dumb.

id say thats an opinion thats about as close to a fact as an opinion can get. current design has become awful, it needed changed, its getting changed, new design looks sensible.

'flask sustain'... man, that should be the measure of how bad your flask system is, if any significant amount of players can manage flask sustain you have failed and need drastic changes.

"

goetzjam wrote:

The thing is if they overshoot on the nerfs by a significant margin, they will lose the playerbase that is allowing them to fund and make POE2.

theyve already been losing players for years because the gameplay of poe is crap, because of problems like this that they should have sorted out literally 3 or 4 years ago and have been dragging their feet on.

i wasnt going to play the new league, i might now in order to try these changes.

whats actually important is that poe2 will bring everyone back, all the people crying who leave because they cant permaflask will come back for poe2 and an absolute TON of new players will come for poe2. thats what is important, when those players turn up having a game thats actually good right away, not a game that is rubbish and needs 6 months of iterations to be correct, a game that is winning from the first bell. they have 1 shot at keeping a massive player influx, they cannot fail poe2 on launch.

right now is exactly the time to do these things. a lot of the game straight up sucks because they have been so poor at nipping issues in the bud and have let them become these massive problems like flasks, item drops, power creep etc. they get everyone back for free with poe2, all these problems have to be sorted for poe2 launch, it would be criminal not to sort them right now.



this whole idea of 'dont fix the game because ull lose players'... if they dont fix the game the game will be shit and they lose everything in the long run. its not a valid argument, poe only still exists because diablo 3 was shit and poe open beta wasnt.

no content REQUIRES flasks, thats the truth.
it makes said content far easier AND faster - thats another truth.

was the removal of flask piano needed - definitely.
are flasks in 'ok' spot after the change? no, not really.


i bet their intended use is 'get lots of flask related affixes on gear' now. GGG will do anything to put more pressure on gearing - so you cannot have everything and have to make choices (currently - you dont need to) OR fork serious orbs to get gear that has everything. thus play longer, this spend more on MTX. GGG's goal is for us to spend more and players that dont play, dont spend.



did anyone give a f.. about '50% reduced flask charges gained mod'? no. give me a break, it was absolutely inconsequential mod.

most people who complain about it play with 43% fire resist and rely on flasks to get capped.. aka play junk builds that have no place in this game anymore

on the other hand: most flasks have no use after this change and that is.. pretty bad

I think they have uses. Emergency panic buttons, just like full rejuves, antidotes and thawing potions in diablo 2. All of my character have:

- 1x Belt slot of Full Rejuvinations potion:
HEAL ME NOW - or - Ahhhhh I'm mana burned in a Fanatic pack!!!

- 1x Belt Slot of Thawing potions:
Arrgh... chilled with an Extra Fast, Fanatic, Cold enchanted pack on me!!!

- 1x Belt Slot of Antidote potions:
That's a really bad poison dot... wont' stop ticking... after ten minutes...

- 1x Belt Slot of Town Portal Scrolls:
Because I just can't give up those last two 7% MF small charms...

They are all panic buttons or small convince items that I use only when necessary. At no point am I using them to...

...plug my resist holes 24/7...
...grant immunity to all negative map mods...
...functionally turning my primary skill into an 8-link...
...causing myself measurable physical injury because I am trying to keep 5 4-9 second duration flasks going 100% of the time...

I'm almost wondering if GGG is getting worried that their insane player-base is going to start SUING them because of their self inflicted RSI. And the devs don't dare even admit it was a factor in the flask balancing, for reasons your average trial lawyer can explain to you.

At some point, they just might be literally protecting our dumb asses from ourselves. Or at least themselves from getting drug into court.

I think its pretty telling when the people that think the flask charge change is fine have sub 12 challenges done in the current league. I understand I also don't but I was pretty burnt out after playing ritual so much and I didnt feel like the league looked interesting enough to play that much.

That being said, people say content doesn't require flask, I challenge you to do it now. Prove to me you are fine with using 0 flask currently, because I can promise you the experience of not having flask is not an enjoyable one, especially if your trying to avoid dying.


Furthermore, you guys are completely ignoring the fact they are nerfing the power of the flask in this very patch. Double and triple nerfing a system or more in a single patch is NEVER a good design decision.



What about the fact that players are going to work around the changes by tping out of the map to refill, what part of that is fun and engaging? None.

So maybe they should add flask refill shrines, similar to the design they have in royal mode, by boss rooms and league encounters.

"

I'm almost wondering if GGG is getting worried that their insane player-base is going to start SUING them because of their self inflicted RSI.

That is the dumbest thing I've read on these forums in a very long time. You can't sue because of an action you did on your own accord.

"

did anyone give a f.. about '50% reduced flask charges gained mod'? no. give me a break, it was absolutely inconsequential mod.

If your going fast enough sure, if you are a good enough player sure. If your the average joe with a subpar build, absolutely.

"

whats actually important is that poe2 will bring everyone back, all the people crying who leave because they cant permaflask will come back for poe2 and an absolute TON of new players will come for poe2. thats what is important, when those players turn up having a game thats actually good right away, not a game that is rubbish and needs 6 months of iterations to be correct, a game that is winning from the first bell. they have 1 shot at keeping a massive player influx, they cannot fail poe2 on launch.

Poe 2 is a year or far more out. You absolutely need money in the meantime to keep developing the game, so why shit on your community so hard in the meantime. Slowly move towards the goalline, rather then making a mad dash and then having no one left to support you in the meantime.

"

4: Cry more about your flasks.

Thanks for contributing nothing, as always.



Maybe it doesnt matter when the nerfs are going to make flask mostly pointless. I just dont understand if the nerfs are bringing the powerlevel down significantly, why must charges also be gutted to the extreme? Lets not forget its not just less charges, but many flask aren't going to even ahve multiple uses by default. Nerfs, on nerfs, on nerfs of the same system has never ever been a good idea, in the same patch.

I too want to press quicksilver 3 times a map.


The slow builds will be slower. The faster builds will be relatively speaking, even faster now. Classic GGG balance without understanding the consequences of their actions.

I thought it was odd they said Players pay attention and read map modifiers. Do they?

I only make sure Reflect isn't on there. Which it shouldn't exist but otherwise just go.

Reduced Flask charges only really caused an issue when playing non-leech or self-cast.
Oh man, self-cast is probably going even further towards the trash can come to think of it. I'm not even going to consider CoC or Self-cast this league.

100% up-time Enduring Cry + Leech time. Lets go.

"

goetzjam wrote:

I think its pretty telling when the people that think the flask charge change is fine have sub 12 challenges done in the current league.

Is that surprising? Players that are the most open about changes would likely be those that aren't very happy with the current state of things.

"

sidtherat wrote:

did anyone give a f.. about '50% reduced flask charges gained mod'? no. give me a break, it was absolutely inconsequential mod.

That's because the monster density actually did made it inconsequential, if it was, say, 95%, it would be avoided like plague.

"

raics wrote:

"

goetzjam wrote:

I think its pretty telling when the people that think the flask charge change is fine have sub 12 challenges done in the current league.

Is that surprising? Players that are the most open about changes would likely be those that aren't very happy with the current state of things.

Its not a matter of being open to changes, its about not understanding a problem being introduced with the change.

Like I said, I'm down with making adjustments to the system, but without any mechanic to counter some of the issue, 75% reduced is far too much.

"

goetzjam wrote:

Its not a matter of being open to changes, its about not understanding a problem being introduced with the change.

Like I said, I'm down with making adjustments to the system, but without any mechanic to counter some of the issue, 75% reduced is far too much.

I mean, we've been there, if it turns out that the game is impossible to play now they'll do something about it. They just want people to play the game without doing flask piano, I don't think those are mutually exclusive. Hell, I'll go on a limb and say it wouldn't even be that hard to implement, the most work will be about tying the loose ends, not getting the basic functionality.

Wrong. It has nothing to do with flask piano, else a short cooldown would have served. Did you think basalt murder was because of flask piano? Or did you think using normal non league mobs was a justification for butchering gems? [Removed by Support]. If you are cut from the rewards from high tier league content just how are you planning to gather the humongous amount of currency needed to progress? Or will you stay at white maps forever and drool like a zombie at a streamer with a whole party behind them?! Cause it is precisely no lifer parties and bots that will have absolute monopoly to even stuff like t82-83 NON influenced bases once 95% of people are dead stuck in mid yellows after a month.

But hey you can always use GIMPED mf gear to do whites for rotten peanuts and dream about open beta. Except at that time there existed items like with quantity support gem and rares with quantity on each and every slot.

This is not about difficulty , this is about someone treating you like a worker on an assembly line pre henry ford, [Removed by Support]. And expecting you pay your overlord instead of receiving a wage.

This is not about difficulty. This is about the complete disrespect ggg has regarding you investment of money and time in your toons. Every time they destroy your xxx exalt build you LOSE that value in time and money, which are the same.

This is not about difficulty. This is about the feelings of people (myself not included) who invested in this company with the expectation of a certain kind of product - be it hardcore masochistic poverty grind fest or speed and power fantasy and getting cheated with a product sporting the opposite, because ggg took both parties money, but cannot possibly satisfy their opposing interests.

This is not about difficulty, its not even about GGG. It is about an industry that simply cut off single player from their products opposite the wishes of their customers and in pursuit of more money. And that game, D2, that people around here hold as the sacred inspiration of poe, exactly had single player. It did not have a predatory monetization model feeding off meta shifts to drive mtx sales.

Oh and read quickly cause this rant will disappear because of excess negativity. :)