No Fun Allowed: Reflect Maps

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Baharoth15 wrote:

And even if you used all those Methods combined aside from Paragon/Headsman you would still oneshot yourself even with mediocre damage output so your point is?

This has been said times and times, and yet those people claiming that reflect is fine because you can mitigate it just don't know what they're talking about, it's amazing.

This is on top of the fact that most of these suggestions are completely unrealistic and unreasonnable from a balance standpoint given that archetypes that are already at an advantage do not need to 'pay' any of those either in any case !



I would like to have reflect damage as a DoT + debilitating effect that would reduce damage and action speed the more you 'reflect' damage on yourself.

The Dot would need to have some kind of soft cap of course.

That would make reflect dangerous, and way less binary, and I don't see a problem with Juggernauts and people wearing Kaom's roots ignoring the 'reduce action speed' part of it ( I guess ).

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gibbousmoon wrote:

Why are you including Elementalist in there? I literally just excluded it from the question.

Read again! I said "Apart from".

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As for the others, they won't keep you from killing yourself faster than you can react, because of the current state of damage. (See my earlier post comparing PoE to D2 after Blizzard made an almost identical mistake.)

It's not because of the state of the game it's because you are unable to play the game properly. Believe it or not people were doing fine even in the old days of reflect until they were mindlessly piling up dps without proper mitigration/defence layers.

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666lol666 wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

Why are you including Elementalist in there? I literally just excluded it from the question.

Read again! I said "Apart from".

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As for the others, they won't keep you from killing yourself faster than you can react, because of the current state of damage. (See my earlier post comparing PoE to D2 after Blizzard made an almost identical mistake.)

It's not because of the state of the game it's because you are unable to play the game properly. Believe it or not people were doing fine even in the old days of reflect until they were mindlessly piling up dps without proper mitigration/defence layers.

Pfft.

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666lol666 wrote:

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gibbousmoon wrote:

Why are you including Elementalist in there? I literally just excluded it from the question.

Read again! I said "Apart from".

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As for the others, they won't keep you from killing yourself faster than you can react, because of the current state of damage. (See my earlier post comparing PoE to D2 after Blizzard made an almost identical mistake.)

It's not because of the state of the game it's because you are unable to play the game properly. Believe it or not people were doing fine even in the old days of reflect until they were mindlessly piling up dps without proper mitigration/defence layers.

Since you're such an expert you surely don't mind showing us one of those chars that can attack into reflect without killing themselves right? Would love to see one.

GGG used to say that they want us to trade rolled maps.

Sure, since then we got too many tools to sustain maps so we do not need to trade anymore, but reflect used to be one of the motivators.

I have 2 builds at 90+ , phys+chaos and pure fire. I just flip flop chars when necessary.

I would like to have colored map mods tho, for easier "recognition" of specific mods. Like Lightning dmg - yellow, cold dmg - light blue, etc.
And I want that as color blind person :)

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Marxone wrote:

GGG used to say that they want us to trade rolled maps.

Sure, since then we got too many tools to sustain maps so we do not need to trade anymore, but reflect used to be one of the motivators.

Yepp, buying reflect maps used to be a really cheap way to get maps for those that could run those.

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Marxone wrote:

I have 2 builds at 90+ , phys+chaos and pure fire. I just flip flop chars when necessary.

Yepp, doing the same. If the mods are fine except for reflect I just run it on a reflect proof char, and the same goes for regen/leech.. run it on a char that can handle it.

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Marxone wrote:

I would like to have colored map mods tho, for easier "recognition" of specific mods. Like Lightning dmg - yellow, cold dmg - light blue, etc.
And I want that as color blind person :)

Now this is a really good idea! I like it!!

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Baharoth15 wrote:

Since you're such an expert you surely don't mind showing us one of those chars that can attack into reflect without killing themselves right? Would love to see one.

I don't believe in handing out fishes I distribute fishing rods. Joke aside, really one of the biggest problems is that most players these days don't even try to create a proper build and only use other peoples builds without understanding the mechanics behind it.

First of all we know that the vast majority of all chars is immune to reflect anyway:
1.) Witch Elementalists are immune to reflect
2.) Scions with the Elementalist Ascendant are immune to reflect
3.) All totem chars are immune to reflect
4.) All DoT chars like RF or essence drain contagion are immune to reflect
5.) All trappers are immune to reflect
6.) All miners are immune to reflect
7.) All summoners (a BIG thing in 3.8) are immune to reflect
Those 7 groups cover about 90% of the playerbase already.

So the problem with reflect "only" occures to chars who attack mobs themself. What that means is that attack based characters have to do it differently. While every char of the 7 groups above is able to deal two digid million dps numbers without ever putting themself into danger, an attack based char on the other hand needs to know what dps to aim for because the biggest part of the problem is overkill damage. What is the dps needed for clearing every map in the game (oneshooting all the trash mobs)? It's about 200k but let's just say for whatever reason you need 400k, ok? Now with 400k dps you oneshot every single mob in every single map so piling up more dps than that is (for a mapper) plain stupid because you can't deal more dmg to a mob than the mob has life. That is important so again you can't deal more dmg to a mob than the mob has life! In other words when your char deals 4 mil dps while you would oneshoot the mob with 400k dps 90% of your "damage" isn't even damaging the mob at all but will still be partially reflected too. So if you have a 25% reflected from 400k it's 100k reflected damage if you deal 4mil dps then 1mil dps will be reflected. Means you deal 10 times the damage to yourself while you deal the same amount of damage to the mob (because you can't deal more dmg than the mob has hp). Let's stick with that example for a while. First let us assume that the char deals elemental damage (worst scenario). Now let's say the char only uses a Sibyl's Lament ring and the Pantheon power Soul of Yugul - together that is 55% reduced reflected elemental damage taken means at 400k dps you "only" recive 45k reflected elemental damage while at 4mil dps you recive a wooping 450k reflected elemental damage. Now let us assume that you have only 75% elemental resist so at 400k dps you "only" recive 11,25k reflected elemental damage while at 4mil dps you still recive a wooping 112,5k reflected elemental damage. Now add some more mitigration (for example a shaper body AR) and some leech and you're done IF you are the 400k dps guy. If you are the 4mil dps guy you are screwed. This time let us assume that you deal physical damage (best case). Again let's say the char only uses a Sibyl's Lament ring and the Pantheon power Soul of Yugul - together that is 65% reduced reflected physical damage taken means at 400k dps you "only" recive 35k reflected physical damage while at 4mil dps you recive a wooping 350k reflected physical damage. Now let us assume that you only have about 75% physical (numbers are a little tricky here because for example with AR it depents on how big the hits actually are) resist so at 400k dps you "only" recive 8,75k reflected physical damage while at 4mil dps you still recive a wooping 87,5k reflected physical damage (most likely much more because it's not that easy to migrate giant hits at least with AR). Now only add some more mitigration (for example an elder body AR or the Master of Force node) and some leech and again you're done IF you are the 400k dps guy. If you are the 4mil dps guy once again you are screwed. And always remember the guy dealing 400k dps is NOT dealing less damage than the 4mil dps guy as long as he oneshoots every trashmob any map has to offer. Of course you can do much more to mitigrate reflected damage like block, dodge, evade and what not but you can't do nothing if you just pile up dps you don't even need.

After all is reflect a disadvantage for attack based builds? YES, of course it is. Is it a problem? NO, because almost every other char has weaknesses too. If you play the unkillable 200ex juggernaut and you run into a mob with the nullifier mod you are completely fucked. If you play RF and there is a cannot regenerate life or anything mod on the a map you are completely fucked. If you are the godly gladiator Sir block it all and you play HotG and meet some mobs that reduce you block chance you are completely fucked. And the list goes on and on. Not every char is able to do everything in poe and that's pretty much the whole reason for having different classes.

TLDR: Either stop running reflect maps or build your char properly!

Well I don't know how other people build their chars, but it never really occurred to me to make a pure mapper. My chars are supposed to beat any game content, from Act 1 to Ueber Elder. Limiting myself to 200k dps doesn't really sound like a good idea for that. I mean you might have a bit of a point if you could easily oneshot the entire game with 200k dps but that's not the case at all. 200k might be enough to oneshot red tier trash mobs but against one of Einhars Red Beasts you're in for a long fight with 200k. Not to mention deep delves and End Game bosses.

What you are advertising here is literally making crap chars on purpose to deal with one fucked up mechanic. Sure, you can do that, to each his own believes but as far as I am concerned it's a nonsensical believe. The mechanic is wrong here, not the players. Sure you don't need 5 mil dps to beat the game, but limiting yourself to 200k or less just to deal with one mechanic is nonsense.

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TLDR: Either stop running reflect maps or build your char properly!

So as far as this goes, the first part is agreeable, the second part is bullshit. That has nothing to do with proper char building, it's the opposite, it's trashing your own char to deal with an outdated trash mechanic.

/edit You are also neglecting the fact that reflect is calculated on a per hit basis. So if you have 200k dps and hit a mob of 5 monsters with your AOE you don't get 200k reflected back at you, but 1 mill. GL mitigating that. But you're probably suggesting to just leave skills be skills and punch all the monsters in the face one by one with normal attacks right?

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Baharoth15 wrote:

Well I don't know how other people build their chars, but it never really occurred to me to make a pure mapper.
My chars are supposed to beat any game content, from Act 1 to Ueber Elder.

I can totally understand that you want one char for everything but that is not what ggg wants.

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That has nothing to do with proper char building, it's the opposite, it's trashing your own char to deal with an outdated trash mechanic.

See that is the point where we will not come together ever. Why is reflect more outdated than can't regen? Because one mechanic affects your char while the other don't? What about block chance reduction? Is it fine because that mechanic doesn't affects your char either? Are nullifiers outdated or again fine because they don't affect your char? As I said before the basic idea of these mechanics is that every char has it's own weakness. Of course building an attack char properly was not meant as an offence but since you know that the kryptonite for attack based builds is reflect you either can't play reflect maps or build the char around that mechanic. For me it's perfectly fine that every char has it's weakness for you it is not. Just two different incompatible views on the same aspects of the game. Nothing wrong with that. ^^

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666lol666 wrote:

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Baharoth15 wrote:

Well I don't know how other people build their chars, but it never really occurred to me to make a pure mapper.
My chars are supposed to beat any game content, from Act 1 to Ueber Elder.

I can totally understand that you want one char for everything but that is not what ggg wants.

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That has nothing to do with proper char building, it's the opposite, it's trashing your own char to deal with an outdated trash mechanic.

See that is the point where we will not come together ever. Why is reflect more outdated than can't regen? Because one mechanic affects your char while the other don't? What about block chance reduction? Is it fine because that mechanic doesn't affects your char either? Are nullifiers outdated or again fine because they don't affect your char? As I said before the basic idea of these mechanics is that every char has it's own weakness. Of course building an attack char properly was not meant as an offence but since you know that the kryptonite for attack based builds is reflect you either can't play reflect maps or build the char around that mechanic. For me it's perfectly fine that every char has it's weakness for you it is not. Just two different incompatible views on the same aspects of the game. Nothing wrong with that. ^^

Maybe that's what they want, if so they deserve go get flag for it because it's nonsense.

Regarding the second part, you're comparing apples and oranges. All the other mechanics you mention are manageable even for affected chars without going too far out of your way. Worst case in no regen, you have to bring a mana flask along. Certainly a pain but not critical. Same for no leech, swap in a thiefs torment and maybe an additional life flask and you can do it anyway. Nullifiers, blockreduction etc aren't even remotely critical because no build relies on just one layer of defense. A jugg without Charges can still take a hit or 2 and a Gladiator with reduced block still has other defenses to rely on.

Reflect is the only map mod in the game that outright says "fuck you" to a whole number of builds with no way around it. I say it's outdated because there might have been a point in POE history where it was manageable due to damage being lower in general. But nowadays it's nonsense, even my chars with mostly selffound gear and comparably low damage can't deal with it at all. If they reduced it to 1% or something it might be manageable again, at least for a few years until powercreep kills it again.