No Fun Allowed: Reflect Maps

I don't understand... if you're playing a build that can't deal with reflect, don't run reflect maps. Or factor in the fact reflect exists and take precautions.

I don't think its good for the game to have the situation where you don't need to look at the map mods.

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brushmonkey wrote:

I don't understand... if you're playing a build that can't deal with reflect, don't run reflect maps. Or factor in the fact reflect exists and take precautions.

I don't think its good for the game to have the situation where you don't need to look at the map mods.

Exactly. I wouldn't be caught dead running unID maps on builds that run the risk of nuking itself because of reflection. I either ID them, or run a build that isn't affected by reflect.

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Vesuvius079 wrote:

Giving different builds different skip mods helps to provide more explicit strengths and weaknesses and helps you actually feel the difference. Having a build that is all mods viable is nice because you can save time rolling, organizing, and running maps. Having a build with 3-4 skip mods feels shitty. Whether reflect should be one of these common skip mods is debatable, but you should acknowledge its purpose if you’re going to argue against it.

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Pizzarugi wrote:

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brushmonkey wrote:

I don't understand... if you're playing a build that can't deal with reflect, don't run reflect maps. Or factor in the fact reflect exists and take precautions.

I don't think its good for the game to have the situation where you don't need to look at the map mods.

Exactly. I wouldn't be caught dead running unID maps on builds that run the risk of nuking itself because of reflection. I either ID them, or run a build that isn't affected by reflect.

but wheres the sense in it?


I can run a bane build that can put out a million dps at long range, its completely reflect safe and outside of reflect is an inherently safe build because its long range, it auto curses enfeeble and temp chains on literally everything its bane touches, which virtually hits half the screen...


meanwhile i can run a 200k dps melee build that has to go toe to toe with mobs, doing 1/5 of the damage, taking untold risk, and that melee build cant run phys reflect or ele reflect because its phys and uses hatred.



wheres the balance in it? this "well its a factore, its a benefit for some builds and a nerf to others"...

ok...

but that hasnt been designed into the game in a way that makes sense. Its not giving an up side and a down side to help game balance, it provides an up side to builds like totems, traps, chaos etc that really dont need an upside at all and mainly fucks over physical melee attackers who are often fucked by not only phys but also elemental on the same build. wheres the sense in it?



theres no sense in it at all, theres no challenge in it. having a build with 3-4 skip mods feels shitty, ok, so thats being used to hinder op builds? no, its clearly not, often those builds are some of the most generally disadvantaged builds. Why have a factor that makes build A less desirable than build B when its not being used to counterbalance other benefits?

its adding nothing to the gameplay, its adding nothing to the game balance, its just a shit mod that really brings nothing worth while to the table.

well just skip it? yeah sure, thats the answer to dealing with it if you are a player and thats what we have been doing for 6 years. This isnt about how do we deal with it as players, this is about questioning why its there to start with. Theres no reason for it to be there, ive seen this thread a million times, i havent seen a single even half decent argument for its existence.

it stops people risking unid maps, it stops people using the zana mods that result in random mods. Theres 2 reasons to remove it that have actual meaning, that mean a million times more than any reason ive ever seen anyone put forward for keeping it in the game.

no regen effects stuff like rf... ok, rf is niche enough that we shouldnt care. simply dealing direct elemental or physical damage is so common that its just not acceptable for binary deal breakers like this to exist for them. the game has too much variety to realistically wipe out all deal breakers, but it should be a best case scenario to try and wipe them all out, having one should be seen as an unfortunate thing that might have to be suffered for the greater good.

theres no greater good with reflect, its just a bullshit mod thats being clung to by ideas that are at least 4 years past their sell by date.

As many stated, the problem with reflect and some other binary mods is that they don't make the map more challenging or riskier. You simple either can do it or you don't.
And reflect doesn't even punishes only glass cannons, my build has 1k phys DPS and 9k ES and if i hit enough mobs at the same time in a phys reflect map (blight event for example) i can 100-0 myself in under a second.

Reflect can remain, but it should work as an added challenge not just a build barrier (probably making so only rares reflect a portion of the damage might solve it). And if they want to keep it, they should also add Chaos and DoT reflect, and some mods that heavily punishes(but are not binary) traps/mines and totems. This way the mods would be more fair for everyone if they think each build should have clear weakness.

to be fair reflect is the ONLY skip-mod for me in the entire game, i don't skip it presently with my spectres but on just about everything else that is not reflect immune it is a straight up skip.

it does need to be re-balanced to be something you can properly mitigate given enough investment.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

wheres the balance in it? this "well its a factore, its a benefit for some builds and a nerf to others"...

ok...

but that hasnt been designed into the game in a way that makes sense. Its not giving an up side and a down side to help game balance, it provides an up side to builds like totems, traps, chaos etc that really dont need an upside at all and mainly fucks over physical melee attackers who are often fucked by not only phys but also elemental on the same build. wheres the sense in it?

This, builds that can ignore reflect often already have many advantages over most other builds to begin with ...

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Baharoth15 wrote:

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Cyzax wrote:

Translated...
"Please remove all challenging parts of the game where I need to pay attention..."

Reflect isn't challenging. You either have a build that cares or you don't.

100% true but if someone goes with an "I don't care about reflect" build he should not complain about getting wrecked by reflect. ^^ My Scions for example would deal a lot more dmg when they would have Templar as second ascendancy but I always take Elementalist because of reflect. If someone does not want to invest in reflect defence he should simply not run reflect maps.

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666lol666 wrote:

If someone does not want to invest in reflect defence he should simply not run reflect maps.

How do you propose non-Elementalists who use elemental attacks or spells do this?

How do you propose anyone using physical attacks or spells do this?

Having played through the whole game now after a while I can say a few things that seem over the top:

- reflect maps. Even with 95% of my damage coming from poison, I still kill myself on reflect. I tried it and there is no solution for my build with Assassin.


Also want to add a few other things that surprised me:

- Those rolling skeletons. The damage they do in maps is very high and they wind up and roll into you before you get to them. Very rippy even with no damage mods on map. There's no way to really fight them if you need to get close. Have to just be able to survive the hits. They don't seem to be a common mob so maybe that is how they are balanced.

- Porcupine explosions. Without Immortal Call CWDT immunity there is no way for many builds to deal with them including mine. I still clear the map if I need it for completion with totems and offscreen them but I just skip the map if I don't need it.

- Those jumping goats when doing a blight. Had a surprise one-shot from one of them in a map with no damage mods.

Hahaha, I've always been one who stands for challenges at the cost of player convenience, painfully so, might I add. But even I know that certain map mods are nothing more than relics of a long forgotten time. A time where you had instant leech through Vaal Pact, among other things.

There are currently a few map mods that simply disable builds if you happen to roll them:

Reflect Physical
Reflect Elemental
No Leech (mana or otherwise)
No Regen (mana or otherwise)

All the rest, the ailment avoidance, the stun immunity, the curses, the -max res, the countless damage mods, projectiles, EE, PB, they can all be worked around by any and every build, but these 4 mods above simply cannot.


Give you an example, I play a miner right now, quite successfully too, and so I don't deal with reflect, as my mines deal the damage instead of me. I also can't leech for that same reason, so that's that. I do however, completely rely on regen as my only source of sustain, which means that if I'm doing red tier maps and have to vaal my maps to gain the Atlas bonus and I roll "No Regen" on it, I can throw it away, because I cannot run that map.

Any mods that simply disable builds should not exist in a game that draws you in by telling you how many thousands of different ways you can approach the game with. "This world is an illusion, exile." Was Dominus right?



Also, there are challenges this league that only specific builds will be able to do (looking at you Kitava, with your minions) which is such a poor design choice imo. I'm not going to reroll and make a build, level it to 90 just to do 1 red map to do a challenge on, how much time do you think I have to play? Unless I'm missing something, that is not a challenge, it's a task.