Are Stashtabs PAY2WIN?

"

Makillda wrote:

While cosmetics don't help you "win" anything, you just proved the point that cosmetics are desirable and, for some people, one of the driving forces behind their desire to play games. "Fashion Frame" is huge in Warframe. Transmogrification expanded WoW for tons of people and provided incentive for players to spend more time in the game farming old content for skins. DCUO, SWTOR, Fortnite, Overwatch, and many more games recognize that cosmetics keep players playing and can be as or more valuable to a player than actual power through stats/gear.

No, a stack of pixels that carries zero player power doesn't help you defeat bossX, own someone in PvP, complete a level or anything like that. However, as you said, those pixels provide satisfaction to players and all one needs to do is throw cash at a screen to scratch that itch. Players that can't or won't do the same for whatever reason are blocked from that experience, especially if the majority of customization is locked behind RMT/lootboxes as it is in POE, SWTOR, DCUO and many other games.

Are cosmetics p2w? It depends on who you ask. Are cosmetics as important to players as power? In many cases, absolutely. Pushing players to throw cash at a game so they don't look like Burning Crusade clown suit thrift store hobos can be interpreted to be just as loathsome as selling power. "Winning" means different things to different people. While the definition in question is pretty broad, I think it fits but the term "pay2win" needs to be changed. It's no longer relevant due to the evolution of gaming and the motivations of gamers in general.

PS: There's a special place in Hell for developers who push cash shop bullshit in p2play and/or subscription games. I already bought your game and am paying you to play it. Put those assets in the game to be farmed/earned, you soulless fuckwads.

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

The title of this thread is what leads us down this path of useless discussions.

A better title would be "Is PoE truly free2play? Why or why not?"

What do you guys think? Is this game really truly 100% free2play?

GGG says it is.

"

Xtorma wrote:

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

The title of this thread is what leads us down this path of useless discussions.

A better title would be "Is PoE truly free2play? Why or why not?"

What do you guys think? Is this game really truly 100% free2play?

GGG says it is.

You need a well defined base that achieves consensus. Otherwise you will only get a discussion about how POE fits into each individuals perception of free to play. If you build your discussion on swampland instead of bedrock, then you get the same discussion we have had over the course of this thread.

Here is a definition I found.

Free to play games definition
Free to play (F2P) refers to a business model for online games in which the game designers do not charge the user or player in order to join the game. Instead, they hope to bring in revenue from advertisements or in-game sales, such as payment for upgrades, special abilities, special items, and, or expansion packs.

Now we can ask. "Assuming this is the accepted definition of Free-to-Play, Does POE Fit into this business model?" Of course some people are not going to agree with this definition, but that's ok. You can simply ignore them, as they are not building their arguments on the base you set. Now you get arguments that start with yes or no, and then explain why they hold that opinion.

Just my 2 cents.

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

The title of this thread is what leads us down this path of useless discussions.

A better title would be "Is PoE truly free? Why or why not?"

What do you guys think? Is this game really truly 100% free?

GGG says it is.

"

AceNightfire wrote:

Hello folks,

Since there is another thread, where this is discussed heavily (but Off-Topic) I thought it makes sense to make a whole standalone thread for this topic. There are many arguments and definitions thrown into the discussion from both sides, trying to make a stand if Stashtabs are actually P2W or not.

For me personally, they aren't. I have over 30 Stashtabs, but I'm clearly not "winning" at this game. I never have stuff in my stashtab worth more then like 3-5 exalteds, never cleared super high level content and I'm incredible slow - every season. Stashtabs kinda help me to get a little bit income from here and there, but truely spoken, I make more out of clearing maps (even with my slow clear speed). Pro-Players on the other side mainly focus on clearing maps and only pick up high value stuff. They dont have so much anyway and therefore dont hord items that full hundreds of stashtabs. Furthermore, Pro-Players usually dont go often to the stashtab when they try to reach level 90+ first and clear endgame maps or delve first. They simply dont have the time to (ab)use their Premium Stashtabs alot. Yet, they are still the first ones that are rich and got the super equipment. Why? Because they clear high level stuff at a very fast speed without wasting time on item micromanagement. They simply get the good drops because they focus on clearing.

So, what is your stand on this topic?

Greetings

PS: Here is the link to the thread that kinda got derailed by this topic:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2288180

"

Baron01 wrote:

...Yet, none of the stash tabs on their own give any advantage to my ingame character--it is not faster, more durable or dealing more damage just because I have purchased additional or premium stash tabs.

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

You're absolutely correct, though at this point, we are practically begging the question. That definition of free2play (and I do acknowledge that it is a legitimate one) is so broad as to render the category meaningless for the purposes of debate.

I think the key thing is that GGG advertises their game as "completely free." They don't use the term "free2play" (which as we all know does not mean "completely free," since it includes every single pay2win game out there).

So allow me to edit my post in a very minor way:

A better title would be "Is PoE truly free? Why or why not?"

What do you guys think? Is this game really truly 100% free?

GGG says it is.

There. Better?

OK, I already know what your next post is going to say, so I'll address it now.

"How do you define free?"

Good question. I think a reasonable definition of "free" that we all can agree on is "I can enjoy the complete game in a manner approximating the developers' intentions without spending any money."

It seems like an adequately generous and reasonable definition of "free" to me. No?

"

Xtorma wrote:

"

gibbousmoon wrote:

You're absolutely correct, though at this point, we are practically begging the question. That definition of free2play (and I do acknowledge that it is a legitimate one) is so broad as to render the category meaningless for the purposes of debate.

I think the key thing is that GGG advertises their game as "completely free." They don't use the term "free2play" (which as we all know does not mean "completely free," since it includes every single pay2win game out there).

So allow me to edit my post in a very minor way:

A better title would be "Is PoE truly free? Why or why not?"

What do you guys think? Is this game really truly 100% free?

GGG says it is.

There. Better?

OK, I already know what your next post is going to say, so I'll address it now.

"How do you define free?"

Good question. I think a reasonable definition of "free" that we all can agree on is "I can enjoy the complete game in a manner approximating the developers' intentions without spending any money."

It seems like an adequately generous and reasonable definition of "free" to me. No?

I wanted to say,Take out enjoy, it's subjective, and replace with play, but I think it's relevant. The enjoy part of the definition is how GGG makes it's money. I get what you are trying to achieve here (or at least I think I do) and it's pretty smart.

So I will say That yes you can play the game completely free, but most people will enjoy it more if they toss a few bucks at GGG. GGG severely limits your cosmetic options so you must pay if you want to play dress up. They have options to spruce up your hideout, if that brings you enjoyment.

Now to the smart part. It brings us full circle back to the original question, and moves the focus away from literal interpretations.

Are stash tabs pay-to-win. I'll argue that yes , they are, if you use the definition I posted, but the advantage they give is so minute they are almost in the realm of the dress up options. Everything GGG sells has an impact on how much enjoyment players get from their otherwise free experience. more enjoyment equates to more time spent playing the game, and this is an advantage. The more you play, the more stuff you get and the closer you get to that huge low probability payout.

So I would give the victory here to the pay to win people, but I think it's fairly hollow.

"

Arrataz wrote:

First you have to define "win".

I view POE as a free to play game until you hit maps, roughly. Maybe even for a while in maps. But if you want to "win", that is finish Zana's quest and kill the Shaper, and then the Shaper/Elder combo, you will absolutely need to have a currency tab. Is it possible to do it without? Theoretically. Practically? No. With the currency stack size at 10, you'd have to be micromanaging your currency and your maps in just four tabs.

I tell new players when they ask if stash tabs are mandatory, that yes, for the end-game, a currency tab is mandatory, but until then, no.