Are Stashtabs PAY2WIN?

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Xtorma wrote:

If the viewpoints can't agree on a definition, then the discussion will never go anywhere.

If there are any unique purchases that positively impacts the game experience and are only available with premium currency (aka real money), then the game is considered Pay to Win.

From this article.
http://game-wisdom.com/critical/defining-pay-to-win

I think this one is very bad. Not because it would make stashtabs pay2win, but because it would also apply on cosmetic items. I buy cosmetics because for me it's more fun to play with a well looking stylish charakter and therefore it positively impact my game experience. And I paid money for that. But would honestly anyone here ever consider cosmetics pay2win? I dont think so.

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ZuluPopeye wrote:

We told you that additional stash tabs is absolutely insignificant for lvl100 race if you know how to manage your tabs.

You told me? I was saying this right from the start to begin with! I was saying that stashtabs would never positively effect your lvl 100 race in anyway, it would slow you down for sure if you would use them fully. I was always saying that anyone who (ab)uses stashtabs at the start of the season will never be in the top 100 who reach lvl 90 (or 100) first. So if stashtabs slow you down or are insignificant in this race, they cant be p2w. That was my argument all the time...

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ZuluPopeye wrote:

Regarding high level bosses, it's the same, depending on your build, you can beat them with budget gear. Tabs are usefull if you really want to make a ton of currencies but don't provide an unfair advantage.

Yes, thanks for repeating what I have said all the time... Is this some kind of joke?

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AceNightfire wrote:

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Xtorma wrote:

If the viewpoints can't agree on a definition, then the discussion will never go anywhere.

If there are any unique purchases that positively impacts the game experience and are only available with premium currency (aka real money), then the game is considered Pay to Win.

From this article.
http://game-wisdom.com/critical/defining-pay-to-win

I think this one is very bad. Not because it would make stashtabs pay2win, but because it would also apply on cosmetic items. I buy cosmetics because for me it's more fun to play with a well looking stylish charakter and therefore it positively impact my game experience. And I paid money for that. But would honestly anyone here ever consider cosmetics pay2win? I dont think so.

Arguably that is just one definition by one guy, accompanied by a whole article discussing the issue in depth. Perhaps you would be inclined to edit it to make it closer to what you feel is the proper definition. All I am saying is the discussion is moot if a proper definition can't first be established and agreed upon.

Because the definition is not established , no one will ever be right or wrong.

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AceNightfire wrote:

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ZuluPopeye wrote:

We told you that additional stash tabs is absolutely insignificant for lvl100 race if you know how to manage your tabs.

You told me? I was saying this right from the start to begin with! I was saying that stashtabs would never positively effect your lvl 100 race in anyway, it would slow you down for sure if you would use them fully. I was always saying that anyone who (ab)uses stashtabs at the start of the season will never be in the top 100 who reach lvl 90 (or 100) first. So if stashtabs slow you down or are insignificant in this race, they cant be p2w. That was my argument all the time...

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ZuluPopeye wrote:

Regarding high level bosses, it's the same, depending on your build, you can beat them with budget gear. Tabs are usefull if you really want to make a ton of currencies but don't provide an unfair advantage.

Yes, thanks for repeating what I have said all the time... Is this some kind of joke?

Indeed, I didn't quote the right message from Sickness who is obviously a troll.

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AceNightfire wrote:

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Sickness wrote:

So you agree that your previous argument that something has to help you get the first high tier boss kill or first level 100 to be p2w was wrong?

What? Your sentence doesnt make much sense (at least not to me). I'm not seeing how I was contradicting myself like you're stating right now (at least if I understood you correctly). I never said that I need something to kill the first high tier boss or reach lvl 100 and if the game would offer me something for real money that lets me be lvl 100 first, then it would be obviously p2w. Pro-Players show us, that you don't need anything, especially not stashtabs.

Yes, you are contradicting yourself. You first said that they are not P2W because they do not help you win, which you defined as getting the first high tier boss kill or first level 100. Then you said that advantages that are sold only AFTER the those win conditions have been met are P2W.
Both those claims cannot be true, do you see that?

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AceNightfire wrote:

Then explain clearly to me, how stashtabs do not require you to invest alot of time, but still let you earn like 20 exalteds in maybe a week? Especially if you have like 100 prem. stashtabs compared to 20 prem. stashtabs compared to the standard 6. And explain to me, how this time investment for the stash micromanagement will not take longer then just focusing on clearing maps. I did a lot of breach exp runs and the one who is running the breach earns like 20c each run in several minutes and gets some high value uniques out of it too per run. And a run seldom takes much more time then 5 minutes. Setting up shops, prices and selling the stuff takes way longer. Stashtabs are only useful to those, who want to take on the game with a slow pace. Quite the contrary of what winning means.

What are you even talking about? Setting a price on a premium tab takes no time at all, after that it's just a matter of stashing worthwhile items.
I would not recommend anyone getting 100 premium tabs, or even 20.
Your argument is a logical fallacy, you are making a false dichotomy by comparing "managing 100 tabs of trash" vs "running top tier value content". Those are not the only options and it is obviously a stupid comparison, if you don't see that then there is little hope.
Having just a few premum tabs allow you to sell items at a faster pace. Ofcoure you wouldn't bother selling items that are worth less than what you would find in drops in the time it takes to do the sale.

Yeah I ask you questions because there are MAJOR flaws in your argument.

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Sickness wrote:

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AceNightfire wrote:

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Sickness wrote:

So you agree that your previous argument that something has to help you get the first high tier boss kill or first level 100 to be p2w was wrong?

What? Your sentence doesnt make much sense (at least not to me). I'm not seeing how I was contradicting myself like you're stating right now (at least if I understood you correctly). I never said that I need something to kill the first high tier boss or reach lvl 100 and if the game would offer me something for real money that lets me be lvl 100 first, then it would be obviously p2w. Pro-Players show us, that you don't need anything, especially not stashtabs.

Yes, you are contradicting yourself. You first said that they are not P2W because they do not help you win, which you defined as getting the first high tier boss kill or first level 100. Then you said that advantages that are sold only AFTER the those win conditions have been met are P2W.
Both those claims cannot be true, do you see that?

I gave alot of detail why I would call certains things p2w, while others are not. For example that stashtabs only have a real impact on your currency income at a point, where no one cares about it anymore. Also they dont mess up the econemy because it's time consuming and needs good knowledge about the game. If you buy a power boost, you get the advantage, even if you dont know what you're doing. The same cant be said about stashtabs.

And that's why everyone here says you are a troll. You take well written long texts completely out of context and answer with 2-3 sentences that don't even include all of the arguments from someone else.

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Sickness wrote:

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AceNightfire wrote:

Then explain clearly to me, how stashtabs do not require you to invest alot of time, but still let you earn like 20 exalteds in maybe a week? Especially if you have like 100 prem. stashtabs compared to 20 prem. stashtabs compared to the standard 6. And explain to me, how this time investment for the stash micromanagement will not take longer then just focusing on clearing maps. I did a lot of breach exp runs and the one who is running the breach earns like 20c each run in several minutes and gets some high value uniques out of it too per run. And a run seldom takes much more time then 5 minutes. Setting up shops, prices and selling the stuff takes way longer. Stashtabs are only useful to those, who want to take on the game with a slow pace. Quite the contrary of what winning means.

What are you even talking about? Setting a price on a premium tab takes no time at all, after that it's just a matter of stashing worthwhile items.
I would not recommend anyone getting 100 premium tabs, or even 20.
Your argument is a logical fallacy, you are making a false dichotomy by comparing "managing 100 tabs of trash" vs "running top tier value content". Those are not the only options and it is obviously a stupid comparison, if you don't see that then there is little hope.

1. So how many stashtabs are actually good or p2w? If you think you wouldnt recommend 100 or 20, how many would you actually need to get this "p2w"? Because people don't seem to know this. In the other thread, someone said "Just get 100 stashtabs and price everything for 1c". This guy said stashtabs are p2w and recommended 100 tabs. Now you are telling me that you wouldnt recommend it, not even 20. So people who think Stashtabs are p2w are contradicting themselves. Nice.

2. Setting up a price itself may not be hard, but setting the right price is important, otherwise it will result in hording tons of stuff you dont need and never sell, therefore wasting all the time. I mean, lets calculate this: You sell stuff starting at 1c worth. You pick up rings, amulets, boots, certain uniques and ofc currency items. So it's not just pricing things, you need to pick them up. Maybe it only takes 1-3 seconds to pick something up, but at some point your inventory is full and you need to go back. You need to identify the stuff (another 1-3 seconds), look at the item (another 1-3 seconds), decide if it's worth selling and putting it in a specific stashtab (another 1-3 seconds), pricing it (another 1-3 seconds) and if someone wants to buy it later, it ofc takes another 30-60 seconds to sell it (get from the map, take the item out, wait for buyer, trade and get back to map). So one item can cost you over 1 minute playtime. For some players, 1 minute means clearing a half map. And a half map is worth more then 1c at high tier maps.

As you can see, it's not as simple as you make it look like. Stashtab and selling DOES require time, that's why we call it micromanagement. You do many small actions and decissions, but if you take all those small actions and decissions together, it clearly takes alot of time.

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Sickness wrote:

Yeah I ask you questions because there are MAJOR flaws in your argument, that Ia m trying to make you understand.

And you dont provide any arguments at all, since it would show all the flaws you have in your own arguments. And there would be ALOT.

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ZuluPopeye wrote:

Indeed, I didn't quote the right message from Sickness who is obviously a troll.

Sickness isn't a troll. I thought that too for a while, but despite how it looks I honestly don't think he's trying to just troll this board.

He's stuck living and judging from his own personal reality though, so arguing with him is like trying to convince a brick wall with the words "I'm right" sprayed onto it.

I've tried to understand where he comes from and he has shown me, which is why I'm advising you now: Save yourself multiple pages of pointless arguments with him and just stop responding.

One of you has to be the wiser one. If it's not going to be him...
It's not going to stop. Don't let it escalate.

That's just my ten cents.

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Xavathos wrote:

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ZuluPopeye wrote:

Indeed, I didn't quote the right message from Sickness who is obviously a troll.

Sickness isn't a troll. I thought that too for a while, but despite how it looks I honestly don't think he's trying to just troll this board.

He's stuck living and judging from his own personal reality though, so arguing with him is like trying to convince a brick wall with the words "I'm right" sprayed onto it.

I've tried to understand where he comes from and he has shown me, which is why I'm advising you now: Save yourself multiple pages of pointless arguments with him and just stop responding.

One of you has to be the wiser one. If it's not going to be him...
It's not going to stop. Don't let it escalate.

That's just my ten cents.

Yep, that's what I concluded for myself now too. It's just not worth my time anymore, since I'm repeating myself over and over again, always trying to bring my arguments in another way, so that he may understand them. Be he wont and never will.

I think I made my standpoint very clear and I'm not trying to defend GGG here. I think certain terms like p2w are getting absolutely abused to criticize developer all the time. Ofc there are many things that are p2w, but I just dont see it in PoE. I'm not seeing how people really win by using them. There are to many people who still "lose" against others, even though they have more tabs. I'm one of those. I never got deep into the game, I'm not motivated enough to learn the mechanics in standard and therefore always clear low tier stuff. Im "losing" to most of the PoE players, even though I have like 30 stashtabs. And I use them, I have set up a shop and I certainly sell things here and there. But I'm not getting rich in any way.

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AceNightfire wrote:

I gave alot of detail why I would call certains things p2w, while others are not. For example that stashtabs only have a real impact on your currency income at a point, where no one cares about it anymore. Also they dont mess up the econemy because it's time consuming and needs good knowledge about the game. If you buy a power boost, you get the advantage, even if you dont know what you're doing. The same cant be said about stashtabs.

And that's why everyone here says you are a troll. You take well written long texts completely out of context and answer with 2-3 sentences that don't even include all of the arguments from someone else.

That you can't make a logically coherent argument does not make me a troll.

"Messing up the economy" is completely irrelevant, it does not have anything to do with p2w.
That you "have to know what you are doing" is also irrelevant. It would take me less than a minute to come up with an example of something where you "have to know what you are doing" that you would still consider to be p2w.

You have to decide, is helping to fulfill your previously stated win conditions a required criteria for p2w or not? You can't have it both ways, that is simply dishonest or illogical.

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AceNightfire wrote:

1. So how many stashtabs are actually good or p2w? If you think you wouldnt recommend 100 or 20, how many would you actually need to get this "p2w"? Because people don't seem to know this. In the other thread, someone said "Just get 100 stashtabs and price everything for 1c". This guy said stashtabs are p2w and recommended 100 tabs. Now you are telling me that you wouldnt recommend it, not even 20. So people who think Stashtabs are p2w are contradicting themselves. Nice.

Between 1 and infinity depending on the situation. I am sure that someone has a playstyle that makes "Just get 100 stashtabs and price everything for 1c" worthwhile.

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AceNightfire wrote:

2. Setting up a price itself may not be hard, but setting the right price is important, otherwise it will result in hording tons of stuff you dont need and never sell, therefore wasting all the time. I mean, lets calculate this: You sell stuff starting at 1c worth. You pick up rings, amulets, boots, certain uniques and ofc currency items. So it's not just pricing things, you need to pick them up. Maybe it only takes 1-3 seconds to pick something up, but at some point your inventory is full and you need to go back. You need to identify the stuff (another 1-3 seconds), look at the item (another 1-3 seconds), decide if it's worth selling and putting it in a specific stashtab (another 1-3 seconds), pricing it (another 1-3 seconds) and if someone wants to buy it later, it ofc takes another 30-60 seconds to sell it (get from the map, take the item out, wait for buyer, trade and get back to map). So one item can cost you over 1 minute playtime. For some players, 1 minute means clearing a half map. And a half map is worth more then 1c at high tier maps.

As you can see, it's not as simple as you make it look like. Stashtab and selling DOES require time, that's why we call it micromanagement. You do many small actions and decissions, but if you take all those small actions and decissions together, it clearly takes alot of time.

That argument only works if there is NOTHING that is worth the time to pickup and sell.

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AceNightfire wrote:

And you dont provide any arguments at all, since it would show all the flaws you have in your own arguments. And there would be ALOT.

Premise 1: Buying tabs allow you to sell items faster.
Premise 2: Selling items faster is an advantage.
Premise 3: Paying for an advantage is P2W.
Conclusion: Buying tabs is (or allows for) P2W.

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AceNightfire wrote:

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Xtorma wrote:

If the viewpoints can't agree on a definition, then the discussion will never go anywhere.

If there are any unique purchases that positively impacts the game experience and are only available with premium currency (aka real money), then the game is considered Pay to Win.

From this article.
http://game-wisdom.com/critical/defining-pay-to-win

I think this one is very bad. Not because it would make stashtabs pay2win, but because it would also apply on cosmetic items. I buy cosmetics because for me it's more fun to play with a well looking stylish charakter and therefore it positively impact my game experience. And I paid money for that. But would honestly anyone here ever consider cosmetics pay2win? I dont think so.

While cosmetics don't help you "win" anything, you just proved the point that cosmetics are desirable and, for some people, one of the driving forces behind their desire to play games. "Fashion Frame" is huge in Warframe. Transmogrification expanded WoW for tons of people and provided incentive for players to spend more time in the game farming old content for skins. DCUO, SWTOR, Fortnite, Overwatch, and many more games recognize that cosmetics keep players playing and can be as or more valuable to a player than actual power through stats/gear.

No, a stack of pixels that carries zero player power doesn't help you defeat bossX, own someone in PvP, complete a level or anything like that. However, as you said, those pixels provide satisfaction to players and all one needs to do is throw cash at a screen to scratch that itch. Players that can't or won't do the same for whatever reason are blocked from that experience, especially if the majority of customization is locked behind RMT/lootboxes as it is in POE, SWTOR, DCUO and many other games.

Are cosmetics p2w? It depends on who you ask. Are cosmetics as important to players as power? In many cases, absolutely. Pushing players to throw cash at a game so they don't look like Burning Crusade clown suit thrift store hobos can be interpreted to be just as loathsome as selling power. "Winning" means different things to different people. While the definition in question is pretty broad, I think it fits but the term "pay2win" needs to be changed. It's no longer relevant due to the evolution of gaming and the motivations of gamers in general.

PS: There's a special place in Hell for developers who push cash shop bullshit in p2play and/or subscription games. I already bought your game and am paying you to play it. Put those assets in the game to be farmed/earned, you soulless fuckwads.