Are Stashtabs PAY2WIN?

You people seriously need to have a hard think about the difference between "gameplay improvement" and "gameplay advantage." There is nothing you can do with stash tabs that you can't do without them. In fact, the only thing you can do easier is sell things, which is a purely optional part of the game, to the point there's a whole mechanic based on not doing that. You aren't ahead of the pack, because there's no pack. Stash tabs are pure QoL, which is not p2w in any meaningful sense.

Inventory space is an advantage in some games, but that's entirely down to how progression and loot work. Warframe, for example, is pretty explicitly p2w. You simply can't try most of the options in the game or have more than a couple working loadouts if you don't buy room for it. In PoE, there's nobody forcing you to keep any of the crap you don't use. You could vendor everything and still eventually go kill the shaper or whatever else you might want to do. The experience is simply slower and less convenient.

Now, "pay to enjoy," that's another thing entirely. Stash tabs are indispensable for taking some of the slog out of this game. It is important to distinguish this from p2w because it's operating on a completely different ethical foundation. Before you buy stash tabs, you're essentially playing a demo. A demo which could theoretically include permanent access to all the content they create. That's ludicrously generous, whereas p2w in its kindest forms is essentially manipulative.

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ajo wrote:

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007Bistromath wrote:

There is nothing you can do with stash tabs that you can't do without them. In fact, the only thing you can do easier is sell things, which is a purely optional part of the game

Where is the logic in this? So if you could purchase a buff for PvP (which is optional) that would be okay and not P2W? Hmm...

Again and again and again: pro-players are prime examples that you dont need stashtabs to win at this game. They dont benefit from them at the start of the league, yet they reach lvl 90+ in 2 days, clear high tier maps with ssf equipment (since there is no market they could buy from) and are the first ones who have tons of exalteds in their stash in several days. They only use them when the season slows down, but then it's not p2w anymore, since all the "win" achievements (first lvl 100, first elder kill etc.) have already been reached.

Those are better terms to describe stashtabs:

P4C = Pay for Convinience
or
P2P = Pay to Play

At some point during a season you want stashtabs, when it's not about winning anymore. When you can slow down your pace and concentrate on other things (like trying out new builds). Stashtabs help you to benefit at THIS stage of a season. But you can't call this winning, it just convinient. It lets you enjoy the content of PoE way more. But winning? No.

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AceNightfire wrote:

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ajo wrote:

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007Bistromath wrote:

There is nothing you can do with stash tabs that you can't do without them. In fact, the only thing you can do easier is sell things, which is a purely optional part of the game

Where is the logic in this? So if you could purchase a buff for PvP (which is optional) that would be okay and not P2W? Hmm...

Again and again and again: pro-players are prime examples that you dont need stashtabs to win at this game. They dont benefit from them at the start of the league, yet they reach lvl 90+ in 2 days, clear high tier maps with ssf equipment (since there is no market they could buy from) and are the first ones who have tons of exalteds in their stash in several days. They only use them when the season slows down, but then it's not p2w anymore, since all the "win" achievements (first lvl 100, first elder kill etc.) have already been reached.

Those are better terms to describe stashtabs:

P4C = Pay for Convinience
or
P2P = Pay to Play

At some point during a season you want stashtabs, when it's not about winning anymore. When you can slow down your pace and concentrate on other things (like trying out new builds). Stashtabs help you to benefit at THIS stage of a season. But you can't call this winning, it just convinient. It lets you enjoy the content of PoE way more. But winning? No.

So if they had power boosters, currency, experience tokens etc in the store that unlocked in new leagues only after someone reached 100 and the highest tier bosses were cleared you would proudly proclaim that there are no p2w elements?

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Sickness wrote:

So if they had power boosters, currency, experience tokens etc in the store that unlocked in new leagues only after someone reached 100 and the highest tier bosses were cleared you would proudly proclaim that there are no p2w elements?

i am suspicous of this recurring theme about players who dont even play any league shitting on game.
how much do they pay you to troll here ?

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ajo wrote:

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007Bistromath wrote:

There is nothing you can do with stash tabs that you can't do without them. In fact, the only thing you can do easier is sell things, which is a purely optional part of the game

Where is the logic in this? So if you could purchase a buff for PvP (which is optional) that would be okay and not P2W? Hmm...

PvP is explicitly about competing with other players, and buffs for it would obviously be direct mechanical benefits. That is not in any way comparable to "selling things is easier" unless you are so mind-bendingly dumb that you honestly believe you are in meaningful competition with the kind of players that get like 10ex a day.

You simply aren't that awesome, or this argument would be meaningless to you in the first place. They're playing a completely different game than any of us.

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MrsDeath_ wrote:

i am suspicous of this recurring theme about players who dont even play any league shitting on game.
how much do they pay you to troll here ?

In what way am I shitting on the game?
I have absolutely no problems with stash tabs. That doesn't mean I'm gonna pretend that they are not p2w just to somehow "defend" the game.

I have like 15-20 tabs myself, but I somehow don't see this ''pay to win'' option everyone is talking about. I had 2 drops that I sold this league, one being 90c the other being 1.5 ex and had 0 drops when it comes to exalted this league. Bought most of the stuff needed for a few chaos, but nothing that would take more than 5 tabs, and even then it is more stacked with a bunch of items since I am too lazy to organize it (I have a tab for everything but it would be a hassle to use tab by tab and a lot of time wasted, so I'm just throwing everything in the first available tab and proceed with the maps.

Would my playthrough be different if I was competing? Yes, I wouldn't be picking all the garbage.

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ajo wrote:

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007Bistromath wrote:

PvP is explicitly about competing with other players, and buffs for it would obviously be direct mechanical benefits. That is not in any way comparable to "selling things is easier"

But why? PvP is a purely optional part of the game just like selling in your words. IMO selling is a major part and PvP a minor. What applies to A should also apply to B, no? How about a minor boost for doing optional content like Atziri. Lets call it a "buff of convenience" where you get 10% increased movementspeed in the Apex. Silly right?

Lets ignore the selling part for a bit and focus on the storage part. I'm curious, where would you defenders consider the convenience-line as crossed?

How many starting tabs could you remove?
How much could you shrink the maximum stacksizes (in percentage)?

That line doesn't even exist in your perspective, does it?

Yes, it would be P2W to be able to buy buffs for PvP, because PvP is a DIRECT COMPETITION between two players. One wins and one loses. But there is no direct competition about how much Currency you have compared to someone else. There is no ladder that shows who is the richest. You can't compare with others, nor can you ever understand how much influence the stashtabs had when someone is richer then you. There are people who have 20 stashtabs and are richer then someone with 100 stashtabs. Hell, I would say there are people with no stashtabs at all who are richer then me WITH stashtabs. So there is no clean correlation between stashtabs and being rich.

About your question: "How many starting tabs could you remove?"
- I agree that 6 are not enough now. In GGGs position, I would add another 4, since alot of items were added during all the seasons. So to answer your question: I wouldnt remove tabs, I would increase the number. It's not like the game isnt playable with only 6 stashtabs, but it's harder to enjoy at some point during the league, because there ARE things you always want to stash, especially if you plan multiple characters.

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鬼殺し wrote:

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MrsDeath_ wrote:

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Sickness wrote:

So if they had power boosters, currency, experience tokens etc in the store that unlocked in new leagues only after someone reached 100 and the highest tier bosses were cleared you would proudly proclaim that there are no p2w elements?

i am suspicous of this recurring theme about players who dont even play any league shitting on game.
how much do they pay you to troll here ?

LOL. Sickness, who has been here *from the fucking start*, accused of being a paid troll.

Now I've fucking seen everything.

Being there from the start doesnt mean he can't troll. He seldom delivers any arguments at all and just repeats "You are not right, I am right. Please bring me another argument that I can ignore fully". If he really isn't trolling, you could say he is incredible bad at participating in a discussion that needs clear arguments.

Yes.

Unless you're already an elite overgod of PoE on the level of Deadanddoom the Map tab might as well be cheat engine because of how much space the damn things take up. Same with Atziri frags

Define "winning"

I say this because.

1. trading (premium stashes)...you could say this is p2w, but then you have people playing SSF without trade.

2. Wealth storage, people consider that winning i guess, but it dose not prevent you from clearing the game...especially considering people HAVE cleared the game with no stash tabs, AND you have had people fill their standard unmodified account with more ex than most players will ever see.

3. Convenience, to a point sure, but after a point they are just a disorganised mess that takes more and more time to manage.

4. While GGG make a good amount of money, they are pretty damn cheap considering...you can't even really use the excuse of being poor, i mean you have enough to feed yourself and get online with a PC so you can scrape up $20 over the course of a year....i managed it (unemployed since before the game launched)

Then you get free storage in a few forms, being able to use mule accounts (under standard rules, no more than 2 clients per PC and no automation)...GGG encouraged this.
And remove only tabs...since the majority of players play on a temp league they can fill those tabs with value items to be store permanently on standard leagues.

So it still boils sown to what YOU the player is to lazy/stubborn to do and would rather just throw money at the problem...a.k.a convenience