Are Stashtabs PAY2WIN?

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Johny_Snow wrote:

They definitely are. People who argue otherwise simply feel the need to defend GGG for some reason when there is nothing to defend. Nothing wrong with P2W as long as the price is reasonable.

this is the least correct argument possible, congrats

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AceNightfire wrote:

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ajo wrote:

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AceNightfire wrote:

A benefit doesnt automatically mean you win.

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ajo wrote:

P2W is a term that means:
- Real money = In-game benefits. (Simple as that)

Terms are words and compound words or multi-word expressions that in specific contexts are given specific meanings

You don't get it, do you? You simply dont WIN by having them. The definition of win is:

"a successful result in a contest, conflict, bet, or other endeavour; a victory"

In PoE, there is a contest: Who reaches lvl 100 first and who clears the highest tier bosses first. Stashtabs dont let you win this contest, they even SLOW you down if you use them.

Furthermore, you also buy disadvantages on top of the benefits. If you had carefully read what I wrote, then you would have understood that.

So if they had power boosters, currency, experience tokens etc in the store that unlocked in new leagues only after someone reached 100 and the highest tier bosses were cleared you would proudly proclaim that there are no p2w elements?

I think even if there will be a "level 100 + all mirror gear / T1 uniques + Uber Elder fight unlocked permanently" pack in the shop for $200, there are some people here who will find an excuse or a clever wording, not to call it P2W.

GGG will not do that. I've been a loyal supporter for years knowing they are different.
But being a supporter does not imply being a blind annoying "Itsh not pay too Winn because what ish Winn?" Fanboy.

Tabs are a p2w feature now more than ever before.

Cut that shit out.

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I think even if there will be a "level 100 + all mirror gear / T1 uniques + Uber Elder fight unlocked permanently" pack in the shop for $200, there are some people here who will find an excuse or a clever wording, not to call it P2W.

Let me give you the excuse right now:

You can do all this on a normal account without paying anything therefore it is not P2W.

There are some arguments you are never meant to win. As long as people think P2W = I win immediately button you cant convince them otherwise.

"You can do this on a normal account"...

How many tabs do you have, Mr. Snow?

I have all of them. Currency. Maps. Fragments. Essences. Quads. Premium.
Fuck I will buy the Resonators tab when it comes out. I know it will.
Why? Because for 3 years I was playing with 4 tabs out of sheer mix of principle, stupidity, and masochism.

And then I found out you don't have to micro-manage stacks of Alterations and scrolls, or store gems inside items, or put stuff inside crafting benches, or hold things in the tiny inventory, and not be able to pick anything up in a map and waste portals to haul out loot.
So I broke down and bought some.

And then I bought more. And more. With every patch... Every expansion that holds great things in one hand, and in the other stealthily destroys another workaround to tabs like adding more collectibles or taking away crafting benches, or saying "yeah that thing with 10 Chaos per stack? If you buy a tab you can stack to 5000. Those Atziri or Shaper fragments? Yeah they actually stack. But only if you buy this tab we have. And we also have a maps tab bigger than the Atlas itself"...

Bullshit. It's p2w.

While it's pay2win in a strict sense, you could play hundreds of hours before becoming necessary and the value asked is equivalent to buying a game which is justified after so much time (I got my stashtabs after 1000 hours, a few days ago, by the way). Ehh, it's a gray area, I don't like it but the outcome is not evil.

Justified or not is another discussion, NeroNoah.
I agree with many things you wrote.

But in a pure "are tabs p2w?" discussion, the answer is obvious. Today a lot more than before.

I get angry at people trying all kinds of annoying excuses, to say "no itsh not" just to troll.

Does it imply evil? Well I would probably not be here if it did. If GGG were evil.
They are still a million times better than EA, Craptivision, or the average Korean mobile game developer.
Which is why I paid more to support them, than I paid for most of my other games combined.

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ajo wrote:

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In general a game is considered pay-to-win when a player can gain any gameplay advantage over his non-paying peers. Such games are called "pay-to-win" by critics. Market research indicates that pay-to-win mechanics are considered much more acceptable by players in China than in Western countries

So yeah, P2W.

You just prove that P2W doesnt fit. Because in this definition, you just gain advantages over other players. In the case of stashtabs, you also gain disadvantages.

Let me give you an extreme example: Lets say there is a MTX in PoE. It gives you the following:

- You can't be killed
- Your movement speed is reduced to 10% of the normal movement speed (including mobility skills)

You won't be able to die anymore. You would be able to do every boss in this game without any skill. But you would be slowed down heavily. The time you spent to progress through the first map will take so long, that others without this "benefit" will be on The Ledge already. You'll need probably around 10x the time to finish the content then others do, but you are absolutely safe in doing so. You will surely reach lvl 100 one day if you are desperate in reaching it, so you could call it an advantage o ver other players or a benefit. But you will never be able to reach lvl 100 as the first play, nor finish the high tier maps as the first player. You will never be in the top100 Ladders.

Would you consider this pay2win?

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johnKeys wrote:

Justified or not is another discussion, NeroNoah.
I agree with many things you wrote.

But in a pure "are tabs p2w?" discussion, the answer is obvious. Today a lot more than before.

I get angry at people trying all kinds of annoying excuses, to say "no itsh not" just to troll.

Does it imply evil? Well I would probably not be here if it did. If GGG were evil.
They are still a million times better than EA, Craptivision, or the average Korean mobile game developer.
Which is why I paid more to support them, than I paid for most of my other games combined.

Read my long post on page 3:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2298092/page/3

It's not trolling to say it's not P2W. P2W means you gain advantages (and ONLY advantages) for your money compared to players who don't pay. Stashtabs have some disadvantages that should be ackknowledged in this discussion, because they exist. It's convinient to have them at a certain stage of the game, but especially at the start of a season, they would only slow you down if you excessively use them. And if you dont use them excessively at the start, you wouldnt need them anyway to progress.

When I bought mine, they were a game changer. Not only could I store a lot more crafting materials, no I also could keep items for later use.

Before that, I did throw stuff away, did not pick it up and then when I would need it, I didn´t have it. Especially the map tab is a great help, before that I always had 1 tab for Div, 1 tab for maps, 1 tab for league specific drops and one tab for currency.

It was a nightmare and killed my fun each league.

While you don´t necessarily win by buying tabs, without them the game becomes a chore and is hard to endure. So in the end, we are kind of forced into buying them to continue playing, which does qualify as a pay to play feature.