Are Stashtabs PAY2WIN?

Pay to win?

strictly speaking, no. They are definitely quality of life though, and I wouldn't want to try playing without the special tabs at this point.

They are only pay to win in the same way that a faster PC, larger monitor, more comfortable gaming chair, multi-button mouse are all pay to win.

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AceNightfire wrote:

Being there from the start doesnt mean he can't troll. He seldom delivers any arguments at all and just repeats "You are not right, I am right. Please bring me another argument that I can ignore fully". If he really isn't trolling, you could say he is incredible bad at participating in a discussion that needs clear arguments.

Anyways, I am still waiting for your reply:

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AceNightfire wrote:

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ajo wrote:

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AceNightfire wrote:

A benefit doesnt automatically mean you win.

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ajo wrote:

P2W is a term that means:
- Real money = In-game benefits. (Simple as that)

Terms are words and compound words or multi-word expressions that in specific contexts are given specific meanings

You don't get it, do you? You simply dont WIN by having them. The definition of win is:

"a successful result in a contest, conflict, bet, or other endeavour; a victory"

In PoE, there is a contest: Who reaches lvl 100 first and who clears the highest tier bosses first. Stashtabs dont let you win this contest, they even SLOW you down if you use them.

Furthermore, you also buy disadvantages on top of the benefits. If you had carefully read what I wrote, then you would have understood that.

So if they had power boosters, currency, experience tokens etc in the store that unlocked in new leagues only after someone reached 100 and the highest tier bosses were cleared you would still proclaim that there are no p2w elements?

This is not trolling, this is pointing out a fundamental flaw in your argument.

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Sickness wrote:

Anyways, I am still waiting for your reply:

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AceNightfire wrote:

You don't get it, do you? You simply dont WIN by having them. The definition of win is:

"a successful result in a contest, conflict, bet, or other endeavour; a victory"

In PoE, there is a contest: Who reaches lvl 100 first and who clears the highest tier bosses first. Stashtabs dont let you win this contest, they even SLOW you down if you use them.

Furthermore, you also buy disadvantages on top of the benefits. If you had carefully read what I wrote, then you would have understood that.

So if they had power boosters, currency, experience tokens etc in the store that unlocked in new leagues only after someone reached 100 and the highest tier bosses were cleared you would still proclaim that there are no p2w elements?

This is not trolling, this is pointing out a fundamental flaw in your argument.

- experience boosters would be OK for me at a later stage of the game, since they had no influence in the competition anymore. Would be good for people who work and dont have the time to spent dozens of hours to get their character shaped up. This still wouldnt help them to clear high tier content.

- Power boosters wouldn't be OK, since it would certainly help you to clear high tier content, maybe leading to a point where everyone can kill anything without any effort. Surviving in this game is one challange it provides you and power boosters would help you to cheese this. It's a hardcore game from hardcore gamers for a reason.

- Buying currency wouldn't be OK, because it would be equal to a power booster, since you could craft top-notch gear if you had an infinite amount of money and therefore currency.


So to answer your question: Power boosters and Currency for money would be P2W, since it completely takes out the skill of the game and will ruin the market 100%. So you will probably question now, why I wouldn't also call stashtabs P2W, since they also have an influence on the market:

The answer is: Using your stashtabs still requires you to spent alot of time. You need to set up shops, you must define fair prices that attract players, you need to interact and haggle with other players to sell your stuff (which also consumes time) and stashtabs do help the economy, not destroy it. They create a market and help that currency is not horded, but spent, creating a stable flow of currency. If not used wisely, stashtabs can be really tedious and can get chaotic/messy (so there is also a risk at having them, where there is no risk in buying power boosters or currency). You need to understand the game to use them and even if you do understand it, it wont guarantee you a better income then just focusing on clearing the map. My pro player example always shows you that those people get rich in a few days, without setting up big stashtab shops. They simply concentrate on clearing maps/bosses, which automatically lead to good (currency) drops. Stashtabs are not required at all to proceed through the game, they don't help you to clear maps and it takes alot of time to sell so much, that you can buy your dream equipment, worth probably hundreds of exalteds (something you can also get by just clearing maps/bosses all day). At the point, where stashtabs helped you to get your dreamequipment, the season will probably over soon. At this point, no one really cares anymore about the market/econemy/balance anymore. And if you want to sell juicy stuff worth several exalteds, you can still open up a forum thread to do so. Stashtabs are convenient, they are required if you want to save juicy items for other characters and it helps you to organize stuff better, but they are not needed to win.

I have thought long and hard since my last post in the other thread and have taking numerous opinions into consideration on the subject. I've come to the following conclusions:

Convenience does not equal advantage. The definition of advantage in the context of P2W should remain as it was, services, abilities or power that you buy with real money. As there are no gains in any of those whatsoever from any of the stash tabs, I can't get behind that one.

Whether or not stash tabs save you time or make the game easier for you or not, is going to be different for each player. I've heard arguments on both side of this coin and both seem equally feasible. This would never be able to be resolved with both sides being right, therefor I can't get behind it. It depends.

However, there is one aspect of P2W that does happen here. P2W, very simply put, is buying power that can only be bought through the use of real world currency. Stash tabs being power is an unending debate, with strong opinions on both sides and won't be resolved. But you can only get them by buying them, therefor if it is ever found that these tabs do offer power, the debate heavily shifts into the direction of P2W.

If it ever happens though, it could be fixed by giving players a way to grind out stash tabs via in-game means, like most F2P titles do. It usually will cost you an unrealistic amount of time compared to their cost in real life currency, but if there is at least a means to get them, it's not P2W anymore as once again it rings true that F2P = P2P in terms of power, abilities and services.

Like Charan said, it depends on how much value you tie to the trading aspect of the game. If it's important to you, stash tabs are a touch of god. If not though, like for me, they are probably never going to be used, lest it be for the standard trash bin.

I also completely understand from a business point of view that these tabs have to be sold, as it is the only non-cosmetic item type they sell and arguably the only item type that a trading player may deem necessary to have. It's a game still being heavily developed with a large team behind it, with content releases done regularly, it requires money somehow, other than supporter packs, because those are entirely optional. They have to have a plan in place to survive regardless of cosmetics and packs, this is it.

If you buy all the best tabs, a few extra regular tabs and a few premium upgrades for trading, you'd be down around $45. Still below most AAA retail titles and arguably much higher value, as you'll be playing this for years to come potentially.

For now, my general conclusion is: It depends.
Personally: No, I don't feel like stash tabs are P2W.

I'm also not going to be participating in this discussion apart from this post, as I feel this simply concludes it for me personally and as interesting as this topic is, without significant changes on either side of this discussion, it's likely to be exactly the same 10 years from now. If that's your thing though, by all means, stay a while and listen...

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AceNightfire wrote:

- experience boosters would be OK for me at a later stage of the game, since they had no influence in the competition anymore. Would be good for people who work and dont have the time to spent dozens of hours to get their character shaped up. This still wouldnt help them to clear high tier content.

- Power boosters wouldn't be OK, since it would certainly help you to clear high tier content, maybe leading to a point where everyone can kill anything without any effort. Surviving in this game is one challange it provides you and power boosters would help you to cheese this. It's a hardcore game from hardcore gamers for a reason.

- Buying currency wouldn't be OK, because it would be equal to a power booster, since you could craft top-notch gear if you had an infinite amount of money and therefore currency.


So to answer your question: Power boosters and Currency for money would be P2W, since it completely takes out the skill of the game and will ruin the market 100%. So you will probably question now, why I wouldn't also call stashtabs P2W, since they also have an influence on the market:

So you agree that your previous argument that something has to help you get the first high tier boss kill or first level 100 to be p2w was wrong?
When your argument is refuted you should take a step back and reevaluate your position, not soldier on with what-ever argument you can make up next.
What lead you to make the incorrect argument? Have you though the issue through? etc.

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AceNightfire wrote:

The answer is: Using your stashtabs still requires you to spent alot of time. You need to set up shops, you must define fair prices that attract players, you need to interact and haggle with other players to sell your stuff (which also consumes time) and stashtabs do help the economy, not destroy it. They create a market and help that currency is not horded, but spent, creating a stable flow of currency. If not used wisely, stashtabs can be really tedious and can get chaotic/messy (so there is also a risk at having them, where there is no risk in buying power boosters or currency). You need to understand the game to use them and even if you do understand it, it wont guarantee you a better income then just focusing on clearing the map. My pro player example always shows you that those people get rich in a few days, without setting up big stashtab shops. They simply concentrate on clearing maps/bosses, which automatically lead to good (currency) drops. Stashtabs are not required at all to proceed through the game, they don't help you to clear maps and it takes alot of time to sell so much, that you can buy your dream equipment, worth probably hundreds of exalteds (something you can also get by just clearing maps/bosses all day). At the point, where stashtabs helped you to get your dreamequipment, the season will probably over soon. At this point, no one really cares anymore about the market/econemy/balance anymore. And if you want to sell juicy stuff worth several exalteds, you can still open up a forum thread to do so. Stashtabs are convenient, they are required if you want to save juicy items for other characters and it helps you to organize stuff better, but they are not needed to win.

That is a lot of text to say nothing. The time spent with the tabs can easily be far less time than it would take to find the currency earned via the tabs, so it is clearly an advantage (otherwise it wouldn't be a disadvatange if it was the opposite, as you just claimed). You just agreed that "not needed to win" is a non-argument, so why even bring that up again?

You may think I am trolling, but I am really just poking at the holes in your arguments.

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Xavathos wrote:

For now, my general conclusion is: It depends.
Personally: No, I don't feel like stash tabs are P2W.

So you really are sticking to the idea that an IIR/IIQ boost for 10 seconds once per century is clearly an advantage and thus p2w but premium tabs arn't becuase you can do the same thing in a more time consuming manner. Impressive.

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Sickness wrote:

So you agree that your previous argument that something has to help you get the first high tier boss kill or first level 100 to be p2w was wrong?

What? Your sentence doesnt make much sense (at least not to me). I'm not seeing how I was contradicting myself like you're stating right now (at least if I understood you correctly). I never said that I need something to kill the first high tier boss or reach lvl 100 and if the game would offer me something for real money that lets me be lvl 100 first, then it would be obviously p2w. Pro-Players show us, that you don't need anything, especially not stashtabs.

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Sickness wrote:

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AceNightfire wrote:

The answer is: Using your stashtabs still requires you to spent alot of time. You need to set up shops, you must define fair prices that attract players, you need to interact and haggle with other players to sell your stuff (which also consumes time) and stashtabs do help the economy, not destroy it. They create a market and help that currency is not horded, but spent, creating a stable flow of currency. If not used wisely, stashtabs can be really tedious and can get chaotic/messy (so there is also a risk at having them, where there is no risk in buying power boosters or currency). You need to understand the game to use them and even if you do understand it, it wont guarantee you a better income then just focusing on clearing the map. My pro player example always shows you that those people get rich in a few days, without setting up big stashtab shops. They simply concentrate on clearing maps/bosses, which automatically lead to good (currency) drops. Stashtabs are not required at all to proceed through the game, they don't help you to clear maps and it takes alot of time to sell so much, that you can buy your dream equipment, worth probably hundreds of exalteds (something you can also get by just clearing maps/bosses all day). At the point, where stashtabs helped you to get your dreamequipment, the season will probably over soon. At this point, no one really cares anymore about the market/econemy/balance anymore. And if you want to sell juicy stuff worth several exalteds, you can still open up a forum thread to do so. Stashtabs are convenient, they are required if you want to save juicy items for other characters and it helps you to organize stuff better, but they are not needed to win.

That is a lot of text to say nothing. The time spent with the tabs can easily be far less time than it would take to find the currency earned via the tabs, so it is clearly an advantage (otherwise it wouldn't be a disadvatange if it was the opposite, as you just claimed). You just agreed that "not needed to win" is a non-argument, so why even bring that up again?

Then explain clearly to me, how stashtabs do not require you to invest alot of time, but still let you earn like 20 exalteds in maybe a week? Especially if you have like 100 prem. stashtabs compared to 20 prem. stashtabs compared to the standard 6. And explain to me, how this time investment for the stash micromanagement will not take longer then just focusing on clearing maps. I did a lot of breach exp runs and the one who is running the breach earns like 20c each run in several minutes and gets some high value uniques out of it too per run. And a run seldom takes much more time then 5 minutes. Setting up shops, prices and selling the stuff takes way longer. Stashtabs are only useful to those, who want to take on the game with a slow pace. Quite the contrary of what winning means.

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Sickness wrote:

You may think I am trolling, but I am really just poking at the holes in your arguments.

The only thing you're doing is not deilver own arguments at all. All you can do is question everyone else.

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Sickness wrote:

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Xavathos wrote:

For now, my general conclusion is: It depends.
Personally: No, I don't feel like stash tabs are P2W.

So you really are sticking to the idea that an IIR/IIQ boost for 10 seconds once per century is clearly an advantage and thus p2w but premium tabs arn't becuase you can do the same thing in a more time consuming manner. Impressive.

I didn't say anything like that, if you've read my post. Anything said previously has changed to the above, as often happens in discussions when people bring up good counter-arguments.

I'm not going to grace you with another response again, just so you know. Your conclusions are your own, as they always were and always will be, just like I've got mine, which I'll keep to myself.

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Sickness wrote:

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Xavathos wrote:

For now, my general conclusion is: It depends.
Personally: No, I don't feel like stash tabs are P2W.

So you really are sticking to the idea that an IIR/IIQ boost for 10 seconds once per century is clearly an advantage and thus p2w but premium tabs arn't becuase you can do the same thing in a more time consuming manner. Impressive.

It might be good for the discussion if we have an agreed upon definition of pay to win. I found this definition in an article I will link, and if both viewpoints in this discussion can agree that they will use this definition to continue the debate it might be much more productive.

If the viewpoints can't agree on a definition, then the discussion will never go anywhere.

If there are any unique purchases that positively impacts the game experience and are only available with premium currency (aka real money), then the game is considered Pay to Win.

From this article.
http://game-wisdom.com/critical/defining-pay-to-win

So here is my opinion, using the above definition. Stash tabs are a pay to win feature, but they do not impact the game significantly enough for me to consider the whole game itself pay to win.

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AceNightfire wrote:

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Sickness wrote:

So you agree that your previous argument that something has to help you get the first high tier boss kill or first level 100 to be p2w was wrong?

What? Your sentence doesnt make much sense (at least not to me). I'm not seeing how I was contradicting myself like you're stating right now (at least if I understood you correctly). I never said that I need something to kill the first high tier boss or reach lvl 100 and if the game would offer me something for real money that lets me be lvl 100 first, then it would be obviously p2w. Pro-Players show us, that you don't need anything, especially not stashtabs.

We told you that additional stash tabs is absolutely insignificant for lvl100 race if you know how to manage your tabs.
Regarding high level bosses, it's the same, depending on your build, you can beat them with budget gear. Tabs are usefull if you really want to make a ton of currencies but don't provide an unfair advantage.