farming sulphate is aids

well.. if you want Delves to not drop 'gear' then i do not really see a difference between maps. most loot filters disable most items already in any semi-strict configuration

so 'disabling gear drops' is not really making any MEANINGFUL difference. delves not dropping currency and maps would BE a difference and a tradeoff


GGG has to be VERY careful. this game's playerbase is EXTREMELY touchy when it comes to 'taking stuff away' and while maps have their issues, these are KNOWN and manageable issues. delve is a very big unknown. there is a reason why 'endless dungeon games' are not very popular genre. i do not know what it is - but i bet game designers at GGG at least tried to understand that and maybe, just maybe, they know delve - in long term - might end up boring to way to many players way to quickly

sure, making it 'free' (exagerration) will make it 'fun'. but for how long?

note that currently (afaik) there is NOTHING stopping a player from NOT progressing deeper. so he can reach comfortable level and never leave it maximizing profits without any risks..

"

sidtherat wrote:

oh, please. im not defending this system - mainly because i have only by-proxy experience so it is difficult to fully understand it. i just shed a light on some aspects, nothing more

If you tried it, sid, we'd probably be hearing a lot more from you and you're right to wait for some finishing touches. It's one of those great ideas that probably turned out a lot more work than they bargained for so it came out halfbaked. I don't think three months is nearly enough to do something of that scale justice.

But the concept does seem pretty good if it managed to lure you out of standard.

Leagues erm... Expensions are the bait to fish for new and lost players.
However they can't hide that PoE is getting boring over time.

The trick is to introduce things that keep things interesting. Farming Sulphate is far from this goal. An endless dungeon offering excort missions and suicide free style exploration is far from this goal as well.
Same was with Incursion providing 11 timed missions to open the loot pinada with preset layout. Both leagues are feeling so detached from the rest of the league.

The suphate is the artifical link between PoE and Delve. Nothing else connects these too parts and removing sulphate will end in slitting the game into two. Delve is like a whole new game using the same character you are playing the actual game. It is an "IDLE" game having ARPG elements.

GGG is right, when nameing Delve an Expension. It is something different not connecting with the rest. On top is feels unfinished and is lacking QA/testing. I really tried to like it but the whole thing feels wrong.
I wish GGG would have spend the effort to improve PoE. Instead they created something in paralell. At least, I have to admit that the idea of Delve is appealing but the exection is far from being conntected with the rest of the game.

well, the concept itself - like bestiary etc - is sound. i like the idea and the PR campaign was highlighting stuff that i happen to like very much


but what is troublesome FOR ME is the 'polish' or rather lack of it. when i read that flare mechanic has been changed 2 days before release.. i roll my eyes. ive been in IT business for 16 years now and i simply cannot believe someone was so brave to do it. esp for a product with very high correlation between income and day 0 hook'ability.

i wont touch game balance (that is the underlying problem of most of this game issues) but flare debacle, dynamite debacle, 'press key OR TWO like in bestiary' debacle.. these are DESIGN decisions more than simple bugs. yet these should not take 3 months to figure out. players took like 30 minutes to realize that current implementation stinks.

if stuff like this is 'barely workable' and is being hotfixed on the hour - i dont want to think about general design. for now it seems to follow the formula 'give access to something not available in standard' + 'give MOAR POWAH!'. this formula is pretty dated.

anyway, i like them trying. its refreshing. but if we have the same debacle 4th time in a row.. well, i know what happened to guys when ive been around similar projects who failed 4 times (or rather 3, they never got 4th chance)

My ratio is 10 min of mapping = 20 min of delving. Feels fine for me.

"

sidtherat wrote:

anyway, i like them trying. its refreshing. but if we have the same debacle 4th time in a row.. well, i know what happened to guys when ive been around similar projects who failed 4 times (or rather 3, they never got 4th chance)

Myself, I'm also pretty fond of public executions after three failures, or two of the gross sort. But yeah, I appreciate them trying something else, I appreciated the bestiary too until they caved in and watered it down.

"

sidtherat wrote:

i have no personal experience

I dont go into feedback threads on subjects I have no experience of and start 'telling it how it is'. I dont even look inside them, why would i? Its feedback, it comes from people who have experience of what theyre giving feedback on.

"

vio wrote:

if you compare it to incursion which was 11 maps followed by a 10 min temple, is delve providing more or less new content for doing maps?

you want ggg to let people engage more into the new content but are you aware that this would require the rewards to be even more nerfed?

i mean i did incursion with 27 challenges and just got one double corruption out of it on a shit item. why? because ggg let players into this new content too easily by allowing non map areas to count for high level temples.

they're simply trying to not make this mistake twice it seems. the grind neccessary for the good stuff excludes players like me but the game was never intended to be extremely rewarding for players sinking less than 8 hours per day into it. you get some lucky shots at the high rewards though.

maps are better rewards in terms of xp and wealth. Everyone I know whos grinding for xp or to get rich is playing maps and ignoring delves. So to me that entire train of thought seems completely irrelevant. Nerf the rewards? Well if they can statistically prove that I can make more money and xp from delving that chaining shaped maps for div cards and optimal xp layouts then yes, nerf the rewards to lower than those provide and let me play the content.

This is an alternative to maps, I shouldnt have to do 100s of hours of maps to keep playing the alternative to maps. People who are not me, people who are not as sick of maps as I am, they dont need this content. They are still enjoying maps, they have maps, the whole point of adding alternatives to maps is so that people dont have to play maps, they can play something else instead...

I dunno what part of that concept is too hard for people to understand, but the moment you say well, in order to play the alternative to maps, for balance reasons, you really should have to play a lot of maps... as soon as you say that, trains of thought have got so fucking retarded they needed taken outside and shot. If I turn around right now and say I want to delve, then from that moment on most of my time should be spent delving, not all of it, there should be some sulphate collecting, but the vast majority of the time should be spent doing the thing that I want to do.

"

morbo wrote:

"

sidtherat wrote:

oh, please. im not defending this system

I did not say you were. I understand what you mean - Delve can't be freely accessible, because it would invalidate maps.

why would it invalidate maps considering maps have potentially more xp and wealth per hour spent? What about this invalidates maps?

I think it cant be free access because it would cheapen it. It feels more of a treat if you have to go put in a bit of work for it. But its currently way too much sulphate grinding for too little delving.

If this doesnt get changed then delve is not an endless dungeon that people asked for, its not an alternative to maps, its basically a new atziri, niche gated content and the people bored of maps who have been crying out for new endgame do not have new endgame, they have a game they might as well uninstall because its still basically mapping. Thats what this game still is, mapping, and mapping is fucking awful.


Im mapping for sulphate. You know what tier 1 map I love? Beach. Gimmie beach for days I really enjoy path of exile when Im playing beach. You know what t1 map I hate? dungeon. I refuse to ever play dungeon again, I would uninstall this game before playing that map.

I currently have 0 beaches and 19 dungeons. Why? Because i enjoy beach, thats why right now if I want to put in a map I cant play beach, because thats what I want to play.

welcome to maps.

fuck mapping. The atlas is shit, its either chain a couple of maps forever or basically end up looking at your stash and seeing big 0s on all the maps you want to play and mountains of the maps you hate, its a system of removing what you enjoy and pushing you into the content you dont enjoy, its a terrible endgame system in its current state.


We need an alternative for people who dont want to map, not another extension of everything that is wrong with mapping where we say hey, you enjoy delving and hate mapping? Here, you now have to do a load of mapping because you dont have any delving...

THATS EXACTLY WHATS WRONG WITH MAPPING, THATS WHY MAPPING IS FUCKING AIDS AND WE WANTED AN ALTERNATIVE TO MAPPING.

have I woken up in some retarded idiot dimension where everything that should be obviously one way is backwards, everything that should be right is wrong and everything that should make obvious sense is nowhere to be seen? wtf is this?


Theres 2 activities, A and B, if you want to do A so then the system then tells you that you have to do B, then the system is bullshit and needs redesigned to let people play what they want to play. Its as simple as that, there is absolutely no way to excuse the system and make a case that this is how it should or has to be. No. no no no.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0z_Qqnq8pI8

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

We need an alternative for people who dont want to map, not another extension of everything that is wrong with mapping where we say hey, you enjoy delving and hate mapping? Here, you now have to do a load of mapping because you dont have any delving...

THATS EXACTLY WHATS WRONG WITH MAPPING, THATS WHY MAPPING IS FUCKING AIDS AND WE WANTED AN ALTERNATIVE TO MAPPING.

have I woken up in some retarded idiot dimension where everything that should be obviously one way is backwards, everything that should be right is wrong and everything that should make obvious sense is nowhere to be seen? wtf is this?


Theres 2 activities, A and B, if you want to do A so then the system then tells you that you have to do B, then the system is bullshit and needs redesigned to let people play what they want to play. Its as simple as that, there is absolutely no way to excuse the system and make a case that this is how it should or has to be.

I am with you. For me it is slightly different, but has a similar outcome. Delve feels totally disconnected and sulphate is the only think linking PoE and Delve (which I consider a different kind of game in PoE).

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

why would it invalidate maps considering maps have potentially more xp and wealth per hour spent? What about this invalidates maps?

Well, since almost everything that drops in maps drops in delve too and XP is at least comparable, I'm guessing GGG thinks it would be too dangerous to make delve "free". Maps are still needed to get Shaper/Elder items and some specific div cards, but I'm guessing this is not enough for GGG, to make a risky move and present us with a non-gated always accessible content.

But I agree with you and would ignore maps if I could and just delve. I'd skip quest content too - just grinding the mine from lvl 1, that would be an awesome league.

"

FadeXF wrote:

I spend about 4-5 maps gathering max Ore... this process takes me about say 20 to 30 mins - and then I blow through all the Ore in about 5 to 8 mins of Delving.

I upgraded fuel limit to 1250 cargo space (next upgrade 5000 azurite, for 2500 cargo space), so that I can have longer sessions if I want. The ratio is still something like 1 hour of maps for 10 mins of Delve. I really wonder how much does moving the cart cost in mine level 600, lol... (one of the endgame grinds)

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

Ok delve is great, theres a lot of issues and Ill make a proper post about those...

but right now just want to make 1 point. Im running zones like blood aqua and ossury to get sulphate, over and over and over...

why am I doing this? Why is it important I waste so much time just running through these zones trying to get enough sulphate to delve for like 5 mins and then I have to go back and do it again?

[…]

Give us access to content, fuck this limited access bullshit you always come with. Explain to me why its so important that I run around some shit zones I dont want to be in so I can play the new enedgame content? Wtf is this shit?

[…]

+1 This.