farming sulphate is aids

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

If I want to map Ill map. Mapping is better xp per hour, better currency per hour, theres no reason to heavily gate my delving and push me into spending most of my time mapping. Were not talking about running uber atziri where theres huge rewards over normal mapping, this is mass spam endgame content, let me spam it. Mapping can earn its own keep, if mapping is good enough to make me want to spend serious time doing it then Ill do it, thats on mapping to live up to, I dont need to be strongarmed into 100s of hours of mapping after 5 years of playing maps just because I want to play the alternative to maps.

Yeah, it does sound like those who hoped that Delve was the beginning of a new era will at least initially, be somewhat let down. I guess between GGG's desire to "extend play" and to keep maps core for all, Delve was destined to start life as a league mechanic, not a revolution. I think that you are right to push for the revolution. But it likely will be largely a somewhat seemingly rewardless endeavour.

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Snorkle_uk wrote:

If I want to map Ill map. Mapping is better xp per hour, better currency per hour, theres no reason to heavily gate my delving and push me into spending most of my time mapping. Were not talking about running uber atziri where theres huge rewards over normal mapping, this is mass spam endgame content, let me spam it. Mapping can earn its own keep, if mapping is good enough to make me want to spend serious time doing it then Ill do it, thats on mapping to live up to, I dont need to be strongarmed into 100s of hours of mapping after 5 years of playing maps just because I want to play the alternative to maps.

Absolutely agree.

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raics wrote:

All of those have a varying amount of engagement to go with the tedium, I don't think it's hard to see which are which and which ones the players liked more.

Exactly. I don't mind grind, I like grind. But it depends of what kind of grind it is and how meaningful it is. Eg. Breach is very grindy, it takes a long time to collect one breachstone, but the path there is at least fun.

Collecting fuel is boring. I also had hopes Delve will be a somewhat endgame activity. Not dethroning maps, but at least somewhat competitive to maps. With the current prices of fuel it is not an alternative. I'll be deep into red maps (in SSF, mind you), before I get anywhere in Delve. What's the point in doing delve then? Colleting fossils for crafting? Meh, I can already gear up in maps.

But what I was expecting, is Delve being a difficulty roadblock, either by monster damage or environment obstacles. To some extent it is, since it meekly forces you to upgrade light radius and resistances, but by far the biggest roadblock to progression is fuel consumption.

I have negative darkness resistance, negative flare light radius (wtf does that even mean?), less than ideal wagon light radius... but I'm not stopped by any of that. I wish I was free to explore and hit a difficulty wall, where I'm forced to go left & right in the mine, to collect upgrades before I can proceed further down. Eventually hitting the mathematical limits of the build / gear. Instead I faceroll everything and then I'm stopped by lack of fuel.

I don't need the mine to be lucrative and shower me with loot, I need it to be fun and challenging & limited by build/gear not by an entry fee. The potential is there, GGG just needs to develop it further.

btw, there is a challenge to reach mine level 600. I can't imagine what is the fuel price of moving your cart at that depth. Like grinding maps for a day so you can move the cart once? :D

(btw2, the sulphate "drop rates" suffer the same penalty as currency, so grinding quest content becomes less profitable at some point)

i have no personal experience - but after checking what feedback people post/show - it seems that the Sulwhathever amount you get per map grows RAPIDLY the higher the level of map you farm in it

i do not know if that is the case or if that is 'enough' to make it less 'do lots of boring thing to do some of the fun thing'

second thing is: mind your perspective. you are simply burnt out of one type of content (maps) and would take anything else. general reception of this system might differ wildly

not to mention that it is a balancing act - once you make maps not important and delve important, you can as well delete maps.

GGG wont do it, even with their sense of balance and gamedesign (arc, stat sticks, lol..) they will stick with maps as these are tried and tested. delve is a very big unknown. it might as well end boring pretty quickly and once you give players BETTER alternative than maps, they wont do maps NOR delve.

thread carefully, GGG. one misstep and there is no going back

if you compare it to incursion which was 11 maps followed by a 10 min temple, is delve providing more or less new content for doing maps?

you want ggg to let people engage more into the new content but are you aware that this would require the rewards to be even more nerfed?

i mean i did incursion with 27 challenges and just got one double corruption out of it on a shit item. why? because ggg let players into this new content too easily by allowing non map areas to count for high level temples.

they're simply trying to not make this mistake twice it seems. the grind neccessary for the good stuff excludes players like me but the game was never intended to be extremely rewarding for players sinking less than 8 hours per day into it. you get some lucky shots at the high rewards though.

What about making delves get deeper/more dangerous quicker ?

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vio wrote:

if you compare it to incursion which was 11 maps followed by a 10 min temple, is delve providing more or less new content for doing maps?

Less content for more map grind in my experience.

A T6/T7 map gives aroung 60 sulphate per deposit (sometimes a map has more than one deposit, but mostly is just the one). At mine level 135, which is the same content level as a T7 map, the shortest distance you can go costs 63 sulphate. Such trip lasts maybe 30 seconds. A medium distance is double the cost and a longer distance is triple the cost.

You blow through that fuel pretty quckly. Something like 7:1 or 8:1 ratio of mapping time vs delving time (but I fully clear maps since playing SSF, if you just rush through them you can shorten this ratio).

I think Incursion had much better balance between mapping and doing the temple. Especially scaling was much better - doing higher maps naturally produced higher temples. In Delve you can progress through maps much faster than you can progress through the mine. The two have no "organic" connection.


@sid, I'd be fine if Delve dropped no gear, just orbs/div cards/essences... You'd have to gear up in maps, then test the build against the mine "endless scaling". Remove the sulphite fee, keep azurite upgrades for mine penalties.

oh, please. im not defending this system - mainly because i have only by-proxy experience so it is difficult to fully understand it. i just shed a light on some aspects, nothing more



i will wait for this content to be complete - aka all the hot-hot-fixes etc and maybe will give it a try. right now the bugs and general lack of quality is pretty much off-putting

what puts me off is something completely different. it is the 'level count'. delve level 270.. please, these numbers are meaningless. , divide them by 50 or more and make people actually 'feel' the progress

like now it reminds me of mobile games with character levels 9452 and monsters dealing 2googlinion damage per hit

big numbers are rarely needed but on the other hand pretty much always are used to cover something up.

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sidtherat wrote:

oh, please. im not defending this system

I did not say you were. I understand what you mean - Delve can't be freely accessible, because it would invalidate maps. And yes I agree. If Delve was freely accessible under the current system, maps would become mostly useless.

That's why I'm willing to trade not just gear drops, but XP too. Everything to have the mine open without fuel collection bullshit.

- disable regular gear drop. Just currency, maps (provided you unlocked it on the atlas), special items & delve uniques can drop in the mine
- halve the XP gain, heck make it a one fourth of what you can get in maps of the same monster level
- remove fuel

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vio wrote:

you want ggg to let people engage more into the new content but are you aware that this would require the rewards to be even more nerfed?

Is that such a horrible price to pay?

People are complaining about tedium here; not insufficient extrinsic rewards.

Intrinsically rewarding gameplay doesn't have to shower you with bribes to be compelling.