POE is not a FREE TO PLAY

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databeaver wrote:
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gibbousmoon wrote:
And I would go even further than that (and some people will agree with everything I said so far yet not agree with the subsequent statement), and state that any F2P arguments absolutely require (unconditionally) that GGG make a good-faith effort to make the game 100% playable, from start to finish, with 4 vanilla stash tabs.

That's... a difficult condition to defend, I think. Even for the most stalwart of GGG fans.

Not least because the condition is so ill-defined. What's considered "100% playable"? Do you need to have access to every single build out there? Do you need to be able to engage in large-scale trading and market manipulation? Do you need to store ten full sets of gear in your hardcore stash to prepare for a new character in case your current one dies? Or is it enough that you are able to make progress with a single character bit by bit?

What's considered "finish"? Do you need to acquire every single unique in the game? Do you need to fill all your character slots? Or is completing the atlas, beating all bosses and maybe reaching level 100 enough?

What portion of the player base does that condition need to apply to? There's apparently someone who has made it to level 100 in multiple leagues with just the four basic tabs. But I guess one person is not enough. Would 1% be? 10%? 50%?

And finally, would players need to make a good-faith effort to play with four tabs as well? Or is it perfectly fine to cry foul when your very own playstyle can't cope with four tabs anymore, no matter how much hoarding it involves?


Forgive me for answering your questions with yet another subjectively defined statement, but it's really the only reasonable one to make:

You need to be "reasonably competitive" with those 4 stash tabs.

Those who bitch about this limitation almost always hold the position that they are not "reasonably competitive." So to really counter such sentiments, you would have to be able to explicitly counter that specific sentiment.

Most counter-arguments, consisting of variations of "you can still play the game, you ingrate, stfu already" fail to do so.
Wash your hands, Exile!
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gibbousmoon wrote:
Those who bitch about this limitation almost always hold the position that they are not "reasonably competitive." So to really counter such sentiments, you would have to be able to explicitly counter that specific sentiment.

I'll have to leave that to someone else since I'm not competitive nor do I have any interest in being competitive, stash tabs or no.

I'd like to point out that even without stash tabs, money still brings competitive advantages. A well-organized team with good computers and a coach is much more likely to win the race than someone playing alone at a public library. I don't know if that's a thing that happens in PoE though, since there's no money to be had from winning.

Edit: I guess such advantages are okay though as long as they're not being sold by the game's developer. At least I've never seen anyone mention anything about a competitive advantage in all those threads complaining about poor performance on old computers or unstable internet connections.
Last edited by databeaver on Sep 15, 2018, 1:08:27 PM
Just because you think a dog is a cat, doesn't make it a cat.
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databeaver wrote:
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gibbousmoon wrote:
Those who bitch about this limitation almost always hold the position that they are not "reasonably competitive." So to really counter such sentiments, you would have to be able to explicitly counter that specific sentiment.

I'll have to leave that to someone else since I'm not competitive nor do I have any interest in being competitive, stash tabs or no.

I'd like to point out that even without stash tabs, money still brings competitive advantages. A well-organized team with good computers and a coach is much more likely to win the race than someone playing alone at a public library. I don't know if that's a thing that happens in PoE though, since there's no money to be had from winning.

Edit: I guess such advantages are okay though as long as they're not being sold by the game's developer. At least I've never seen anyone mention anything about a competitive advantage in all those threads complaining about poor performance on old computers or unstable internet connections.


Fair enough. But I think we can all be reasonable individuals and acknowledge that some gameplay advantages which are acquired via economic advantage (fast SSDs, good internet, etc.) are unavoidable, whereas others are completely avoidable, to the extent the game has been designed to avoid them.

And I would argue that you are indeed competitive by the very virtue of your playing this game: Either

1) You play in trade leagues, and compete with others for limited resources, traded for via loot and currency you find,

or

2) You play SSF, which is largely immune to the player-driven economy but still very much subject to balance decisions based on the capabilities of other players (which includes their ability to hoard itmes or trade them more effectively than other game players without the money to acquire such advantages).

In either case, you are competing, whether you like it or not.

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Miská wrote:
Just because you think a dog is a cat, doesn't make it a cat.


Just because you think a cat is a dog, it doesn't make it a dog.

Oh, what's that? I repeated your own nonsense argument right back at you without stating anything even the least bit relevant to this thread? Does it annoy you when people do that?
Wash your hands, Exile!
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gibbousmoon wrote:
You need to be "reasonably competitive" with those 4 stash tabs.


Why? (Maybe) you need to be "reasonable competitive" with those stash tabs for this game not to be P2W, but even if you'd have 1 stash tab, it would still be F2P. I think you mix up "P2W" and "F2P" in your head.

F2P doesn't - in any way - mean "enjoy the game for free and being competitive without compromises". Your personal, subjective definition of "F2P" is why you are very wrong in this debate.

Sometimes, just sometimes, you should really consider adapting to the world, instead of demanding that the world adapts to you.
Last edited by Phrazz on Sep 15, 2018, 1:27:00 PM
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gibbousmoon wrote:


Just because you think a cat is a dog, it doesn't make it a dog.

Oh, what's that? I repeated your own nonsense argument right back at you without stating anything even the least bit relevant to this thread? Does it annoy you when people do that?


If you want to be childish go right ahead. What does actually bother me though is people trying to damage the reputation of a great company by their own made up definitions.

That's also exactly why our interacting is gonna end here. Kinda getting tired of entertaining an obvious troll.
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gibbousmoon wrote:
And I would argue that you are indeed competitive by the very virtue of your playing this game: Either

1) You play in trade leagues, and compete with others for limited resources, traded for via loot and currency you find,

or

2) You play SSF, which is largely immune to the player-driven economy but still very much subject to balance decisions based on the capabilities of other players (which includes their ability to hoard itmes or trade them more effectively than other game players without the money to acquire such advantages).

In either case, you are competing, whether you like it or not.

*shrug* Doesn't really affect me though. I have no delusions of ever placing on any kind of leaderboard. And I seriously doubt my playing will affect anyone else either. Trading is not my thing and it's not like my homebrewed build is going to cause any nerfs. If any nerfs come my way I'll take them in stride. I've yet to see a nerf that would make any of my builds "unplayable" or "worthless" as the minmaxers are so fond of proclaiming.

FWIW I currently play in the open Delve league because I want to play with my friends. I'm limiting my gear to what we as a group find or craft though. If there was a party-found league (items can only be traded to players who were present when they dropped), we'd likely be playing that.
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Phrazz wrote:
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gibbousmoon wrote:
You need to be "reasonably competitive" with those 4 stash tabs.


Why? (Maybe) you need to be "reasonable competitive" with those stash tabs for this game not to be P2W, but even if you'd have 1 stash tab, it would still be F2P. I think you mix up "P2W" and "F2P" in your head.

F2P doesn't - in any way - mean "enjoy the game for free and being competitive without compromises". Your personal, subjective definition of "F2P" is why you are very wrong in this debate.



If, by your own admission, your inability to be competitive in a game with competitive win conditions (primarily economic) is determined by your inability to pay real-life money, then your only remaining defense is

"Yes, PoE is P2W [I actually think it is P2P more than P2W, for the record], but you can still play it without paying any money."

I don't think anyone here disagrees with te latter part of that statement. Rather, many find the statement at odds with GGG's own representation of the game as completely free to play.

See the distinction?

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Miská wrote:
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gibbousmoon wrote:


Just because you think a cat is a dog, it doesn't make it a dog.

Oh, what's that? I repeated your own nonsense argument right back at you without stating anything even the least bit relevant to this thread? Does it annoy you when people do that?


If you want to be childish go right ahead. What does actually bother me though is people trying to damage the reputation of a great company by their own made up definitions.

That's also exactly why our interacting is gonna end here. Kinda getting tired of entertaining an obvious troll.


It appears that

"obvious troll" = "Someone who disagrees with Miská"

and

"childish" = "making a statement which contradict's Miská's opinion"

Forgive me for disagreeing. No fucks given, mate. I only care about logic. If you think I am damaging GGG's reputation by challenging people's assumptions then you are going to save their reputation much more effectively by actually pointing out exactly where my statements are logically problematic.

And I fully welcome that. If you can even do it. Consider that my challenge to you.
Wash your hands, Exile!
Last edited by gibbousmoon on Sep 15, 2018, 1:53:49 PM
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Miská wrote:
some of you are butthurt you can't afford 5 bucks, or think you need to pretend you are some kind of SJW that will set the world straight.


Miska and I were arguing the same side. But I'll have to switch sides now because I want to be a SJW! hahaha

Just kidding, although I am disgusted by Miska's silly personal attacks. Listen sir if you have no respect for the person you're discussing something with then it would seem that you shouldn't even bother discussing anything with them?
Over 430 threads discussing labyrinth problems with over 1040 posters in support (thread # 1702621) Thank you all! GGG will implement a different method for ascension in PoE2. Retired!
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Turtledove wrote:
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Miská wrote:
some of you are butthurt you can't afford 5 bucks, or think you need to pretend you are some kind of SJW that will set the world straight.


Miska and I were arguing the same side. But I'll have to switch sides now because I want to be a SJW! hahaha

Just kidding, although I am disgusted by Miska's silly personal attacks. Listen sir if you have no respect for the person you're discussing something with then it would seem that you shouldn't even bother discussing anything with them?


I admit, I have very little resistance for today's world where people freely take well defined words and shape it to whatever they feel like.

Another reason why I shall step aside on this topic.
Last edited by Miská on Sep 15, 2018, 1:40:25 PM

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