kill the hp node requirement

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jarlaxelb wrote:

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People without enough HP cannot currently do anything in the end game.

You realize OB is what, 3 weeks old? People shouldn't be able to yet, they don't have GG yet. Why make a game that only takes a month to beat entirely?

I dont think you understand what is being said.

Why is HP and resistance stacking the single only valid end game build? If thats going to remain the case, why even bother having a passive skill tree if only one main build is supposed to work?

No matter what insignificant minor variations you make, currently the end game is only valid if you invest heavily in nothing but HP and resistance nodes. All the people defending the current game are actually going to get fed up very quickly when they make it to the end and realize that the only thing that can work is HP and resistance stacking.

lol @ needing every piece of armor with +health and having 200-250% hp bonus just so you can do maps safely.

sure gives a lot of room for variety.

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Tygerwoody wrote:

I think a simple solution is up the % of all hp nodes tad so that people require less. I'll still grab all of them, but it would be less of a mandate.

The irony is that that's essentially how the passive tree is already designed. The HP nodes have a very high percentage (8 percent) for how easy to reach they are, so that you don't have to grab very many to be "viable." You can still devote most of your points to offense, as in my example build.

The further irony is that that's what made them mandatory in the first place.

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AustinNH wrote:

I don't see why passive +HP is so much less fun than passive +damage.

It's because you can apply the +damage in many different ways. You could boost a particular ele damage, physical damage with a certain weapon, spell damage, crit chance, crit multiplier, attack speed, etc. That leads to a lot of build diversity. The more points you can invest in them the more you can specialize into a specific build making you distinctly different from other builds.

HP stacking takes away from diversity. Sure, there are other defensive options you can invest in, but even those are currently inferior to HP stacking.

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AustinNH wrote:

The irony is that that's essentially how the passive tree is already designed. The HP nodes have a very high percentage (8 percent) for how easy to reach they are, so that you don't have to grab very many to be "viable." You can still devote most of your points to offense, as in my example build.

The further irony is that that's what made them mandatory in the first place.

Yeah I don't think we ought to up the HP nodes any further. Maybe just tone down the monster damage and add more active defensive skills. Melee in particular could use reactive skills like that.

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AustinNH wrote:

I don't see why passive +HP is so much less fun than passive +damage. I feel like I'm "upgrading [my] character in a way that I can overcome content easier", because I understand that having defense helps me deal my damage.

Okey..this is maybe matter of perception.. but taking offensive passives is somehow promoting playstyle..Of course,taking defense too..but in offensive side..you have a choice..that's the interesting part.. putting points into passives is not..but making that choice..is (this is another problem of current passive tree system..but it's for another discussion)..

In HP/armor passives.. well..fun part is, when you are making choice based on what you want..not what you have to. As I said..it's maybe matter of perception..and in your eyes you are making choice what you want to do..but in my opinion..if you don't have a choice..you are just doing what you have to do.

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AustinNH wrote:

I agree that more active defense could be fun.

Yea, this is point where everyone can agree I think.. However, I believe that GGG put themselves a bit into a corner when they refuse to add skills with some bigger cooldowns..because balancing strong defensive skills without cooldown or some limiting factors is nightmare..but they still can utilize their orb system.

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AustinNH wrote:

Dude, the build I just posted is viable. It has 172% increased life and only uses 22 out of 76 points on passive defense. Granted one would probably go for acrobatics or iron reflexes next, and maybe some of the (easily accessible) resist nodes. That's still far from "at least half of your points." Stop exaggerating.

Also, I would call it a glass cannon build. More points are spent on offensive stuff than defensive stuff. And the whole path through the tree is motivated by trying to reach the good bow damage passives. It seems like you want to build a tissue paper cannon.

Maybe when I will see your performance in highest difficulty, I may agree with you that I am exaggerating..but TBH.. I never saw a really viable build without at least 50% of points spent into HP/armor passives.. But point is..did you found actually fun that you had to pick these hp nodes on the way? I know..they are on that path.. so you are supposed to pick them.. but ask yourself? it's a good design? Why are these nodes on the way? Maybe because they know that without them these branches wouldn't be viable? So if players just have to pick these nodes..why just not give them these nodes anyway?? As I said..maybe it's just me..but it's annoying me that there are HP nodes everywhere ..and I have to take them.. I think it's just another point wasted so I can stay viable in this game..

taking defensive passive should be a choice..

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AustinNH wrote:

A certain amount of defense probably is mandatory in a game of this type. Like I said, it's necessary for a damage dealing class to have some staying power just like it's necessary for a physical damage ranger to have attack speed. I don't see how to remove "mandatory passive defense" from the passive tree without removing "passive defense" from the passive tree, or nerfing the %HP nodes until they're useless. Or split into two trees, a defensive and an offensive and you get a point in each when you level. Or they could do what D3, LoL did and automatically allocate some of your stats into defense when you level. Any of these changes would reduce build flexibility greatly.

Remember, you may think you're building glass cannon in D3, but that's only because the game automatically allocates some armor, dodge, resist, and I think HP, every time you level. In POE, you have a choice. You don't have to take any defense in POE. Just don't be surprised when you get one-shot.

If anything the devs did the perfect thing in designing the skill tree: They made HP nodes overpowered (8 percent!) so you only need a few (less than a third in my example build), and made it easy to access them on any offensive build path.

I didn't want to bring D3 on the table..because anything tied with D3 is automatically horrible on this forum.. But I will bite a bullet..maybe I will release some shitstorm or something..but let's try it..

D3 has many flaws..tons of flaws indeed..but their passive system and character design is not one of them.. actually they hit nice middle ground in my opinion. D3 passives are offering real choice..and I don't agree you can't build glass canon in D3..or tanky character..actually you can via "poor" itemization but also via very nice designed passives. They did exactly in this case, what good developers are supposed to... they didn't corner players with mandatory choices..and provide some meaningful options.

I played few D3 characters at inferno difficulty.. and never felt (except one monk passive) that anything in passives is mandatory..yes..switching passives could make make your optimal build just viable..but I always felt I can play, more or less, in way I want.. I don't have that feel in PoE..yet..

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bhavv wrote:

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scorpitron wrote:

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bhavv wrote:

No one is suggesting that the skill tree needs changing. People are saying that any combination of skills on the passive tree should be able to beat the game.

whoa whoa hold on there...are you seriously making my point that what you guys really want is a red carpet to "beat the game"? you seriously believe that i should be able to throw a dart at the passive tree and just build anything and it should totally be viable???

This is the build I was working on in Closed Beta, and it was working very well and didnt have any problems up to reckless difficulty back then:

http://www.pathofexile.com/passive-skill-tree/AAAAAgUBAv4EBwU6BUIFWw5ID8QQaRGWF1QX2BpsHwIigSlPLJwtHzCXNsU3gTmKO3w8BT1fQZZCw0SrRtdNQU66UlNVrlZKWmtapl3yXvpgbWZPbRlwUnDVfVN_xoFJgXuCEIIegpuDOISviEKLjIw2jjyOZI9Gj6aVBJeVl_SboZ2AnaOdrp6hnwGf36IuoqOnCKyYrrOvm7I4tDi2-riTuMq8ecBRwfPFzMjMzDvQOdDQ1U_YJNzH3QXed9-E37Dhc-NW5CLk6-UZ6-7tIO9874_yHfPq96b31_v1_Ks=

Please explain to me why that build should no longer be valid in the current game? It absolutely does not work because it just gets one shotted everywhere from cruel difficulty onwards.

complains a build with absolutely NO defenses is being one shot in higher difficulties

...like really? theres not a single defensive node there

What you want is to be able to COMPLETELY ignore defenses and still be able to survive, thats just plain stupid.

actually i`m surprised it even worked back then

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brsieg wrote:

complains a build with absolutely NO defenses is being one shot in higher difficulties

...like really? theres not a single defensive node there

What you want is to be able to COMPLETELY ignore defenses and still be able to survive, thats just plain stupid.

actually i`m surprised it even worked back then

And what you want is to completely ignore offense and still be able to kill things. Great for you, you can already do that, as stupid as it is.

And I dont understand how freeze + chilled arent defense, a build like that shouldnt be getting hit if enemies are chilled / frozen / killed fast from the DPS, but thats not how its working.

It worked in CB because the game wasnt balanced around building HP only characters like it has been now.

If you actually understood the mechanics of freeze and shock, you would realize how important a build like that should be, however the developers felt like removing all importance from being able to apply freeze or shocked to enemies, so now people like you can just run around and play nothing but your boring HP tanks that are still allowed to kill things without taking any damage passives.

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redrach wrote:

It's because you can apply the +damage in many different ways. You could boost a particular ele damage, physical damage with a certain weapon, spell damage, crit chance, crit multiplier, attack speed, etc. That leads to a lot of build diversity. The more points you can invest in them the more you can specialize into a specific build making you distinctly different from other builds.

HP stacking takes away from diversity. Sure, there are other defensive options you can invest in, but even those are currently inferior to HP stacking.

There are multiple ways to build defense in this game. Armor, evasion, etc. Yes they do usually require HP (or ES). Perhaps you are familiar with "effective hit point" calculations used in other games. The way this works is that your effective hit points is roughly your hit points times your damage reduction. In LoL I think it actually works out to exactly health*(1+armor/100). This scaling is analogous to DPS=damage*attacks_per_second. You can get DPS from straight damage, or attack speed, but it's best to have both. Similarly you can get survivability from armor (for example) or health, but it's best to have both. This is not new or unique to POE at all. The only thing that's a little different here is that the health nodes are so powerful.

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redrach wrote:

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AustinNH wrote:

The irony is that that's essentially how the passive tree is already designed. The HP nodes have a very high percentage (8 percent) for how easy to reach they are, so that you don't have to grab very many to be "viable." You can still devote most of your points to offense, as in my example build.

The further irony is that that's what made them mandatory in the first place.

Yeah I don't think we ought to up the HP nodes any further. Maybe just tone down the monster damage and add more active defensive skills. Melee in particular could use reactive skills like that.

This basically amounts to making the game easier. Not really what the POE clientele wants. Besides, it would make the game possible for low HP builds, but all the more easy for high-HP builds. It doesn't address the real problem. If HP stacking is too strong, the solution is probably to nerf the HP nodes.

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bhavv wrote:

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brsieg wrote:

complains a build with absolutely NO defenses is being one shot in higher difficulties

...like really? theres not a single defensive node there

What you want is to be able to COMPLETELY ignore defenses and still be able to survive, thats just plain stupid.

actually i`m surprised it even worked back then

And what you want is to completely ignore offense and still be able to kill things. Great for you, you can already do that, as stupid as it is.

And I dont understand how freeze + chilled arent defense, a build like that shouldnt be getting hit if enemies are chilled / frozen / killed fast from the DPS, but thats not how its working.

It worked in CB because the game wasnt balanced around building HP only characters like it has been now.

wrong, what i do is mix offense and defense to get a balanced build that can deal damage while surviving

and while freeze + chilled are a form of defense, what happens when something hits you (it`ll happen sooner or later), oh yeah, you don`t have anything else to take that hit and will most likely get one shot.

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brsieg wrote:

complains a build with absolutely NO defenses is being one shot in higher difficulties

...like really? theres not a single defensive node there

What you want is to be able to COMPLETELY ignore defenses and still be able to survive, thats just plain stupid.

actually i`m surprised it even worked back then

yeah. obviously some tweaking is still being done, skills added on avg every week etc. i think its not as bad as the few in here make it out to be and its not as perfect as some of us on the other side like to think it is.

what it is...is better than any other arpg on the market today so as long as that is true this is just splitting hairs.