Ways to balance low-life shavronnes builds and daggerers/wanders

It's generally known that daggers are the most powerful weapons in the game thank you. Watch the latest podcast of State of Exile if you need confirmation. Daggers are in fact a lot better as bows or wands.

That's also the reason everybody is in fact using daggers with that build and the reason you're talking about switching to bows or wands.

So ST has everything to do with this topic. Look at the linked items in OP - what is he using as his active skill?

There are no ST builds that are not broken because ST itself has a broken design. I can switch to the ranged skill ST with any of my melee build to get a huge efficiency boost.
Speccing as melee and a ranged skill is one of the best skills to use with it? Being able to throw around any melee weapon as a non melee build with no down side?

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Startkabels wrote:

Daggers are in fact a lot better as bows or wands.

No, the difference is much smaller than you think. I'll tell you again.

The main difference is that dagger uses whirling blades.

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Startkabels wrote:

So ST has everything to do with this topic. Look at the linked items in OP - what is he using as his active skill?

Because it allows the usage of whirling blades.

Here, let's be objective:

http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/971403

This thread has the Gorge speed records, and is a very recent and well updated thread.

The #1 Time is a guy using Spectral throw, with a time of 1:25

The #2 Time is a guy using Windripper, and gets a time of 1:37

The #3 Time is a guy using a wand, and gets a time of 1:39

Then, the time explodes to 1:49 for the next highest ST build.

So, just to prove how comparable these builds around, to find the #2 fastest ST build, you need to move down to the #4 position, past a bow user and a wand user.

And the time differences between all of them are not even large.

If ST was really that much better than wand/bow builds, you would see all the top slots dominated by ST builds. But as we can see, that is not the case. Instead, there is exactly one outlier with a great time, and then other builds cluster right behind him.

And you truly believe that the clear times of end build tells anything about which weapon is stronger? Ok....

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Startkabels wrote:

And you truly believe that the clear times of end build tells anything about which weapon is stronger? Ok....

I would say clear speed is correlated to how strong your build is.

Absolutely.

I can't think of any other possible metric. Maybe killing the Uber bosses? Even then, wand and bow builds can do that.

You're the one who thinks there's some massive difference between daggers and everything else, even though that is provably and demonstratively not true.

However...The CoE + Shavs combination....You have to go to the #5 position to find a build that isn't using that combination.

We should honestly just start some bets. I would be willing to bet that the CoE + Shav combination will be nerfed. Probably CoE directly.

If ST gets nerfed, I would say it will only be incredibly minor in comparison, if at all.

How do you feel about a wager?

Me too, it tells something about how powerful a build is, absolutely....

There is a massive difference between daggers and wands: A wand is not a melee weapon and a dagger is. You don't use ST with wands but Power Siphon. Power Siphon is designed correctly and works with wands. ST is designed wrong and works with any melee weapon.

I agree with you that Shavs + CoE is very powerful, no doubt whatsoever, but they're also very rare and expensive. Though I don't think that this is the only facet of these builds that make them OP. I believe it's the total package of these items in combination with auras and aura nodes and using ST. I can leave out daggers if you want but ST is a lot better as Power Siphon or Bow skills. Basically this build just stacks all the most powerful mechanics and synergies.

I would even agree with a nerf to these unique items but not without a change to ST. The problem I have had so many times on this forum is that everybody is representing blue and almost nobody is representing red. When CI was a thing everybody was all over nerfing CI and now everybody is over this build. Very little people ever seem to care about the state melee is in compared to the options for ranged and casters. That is what you should worry about, not a couple of very powerful builds, but overall balance between classes.

I have never even used Shavs or CoE, but I'm sure lots of "blue people" do use it. Now if you nerf those items and leave ST untouched you might solve this "problem" with the "OP" build, but you will not change anything for melee. ST will still be the one best skill for melee even though it is a ranged skill. You also leave the option open for non melee builds to throw around melee weapons.

Thick as a brick, couldn't break it with a stick.

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Startkabels wrote:

I agree with you that Shavs + CoE is very powerful, no doubt whatsoever, but they're also very rare and expensive.

So fucking what? As if that has ever been any impediment to the RMT-fueled trade in OP Uniques!

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Startkabels wrote:

but they're also very rare and expensive.

of course they're expensive. anything that allows you to break the game is going to be expensive as a rule.

and tbh, rarity is not an excuse for brokenness. it simply isn't. at all.

there is no content in the game that is hard enough to justify the strength of coe + shav builds.

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Veruski wrote:

and tbh, rarity is not an excuse for brokenness. it simply isn't. at all.

No,that's not an argument. Explain why rarity is not an excuse for power. Brokenness also has not been defined; I think that would be helpful. Also explain how a build that requires investment of your entire tree and expensive gear that purposefully taps synergies as intended/designed is broken.

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Veruski wrote:

there is no content in the game that is hard enough to justify the strength of coe + shav builds.

There are a number of builds that trivialize current content. I thought that was the point of soundly theory-crafted builds. How is this one so different?

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Taganov wrote:

Explain why rarity is not an excuse for power.

This wasn't stated.

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Taganov wrote:

Brokenness also has not been defined

I'm going to assume you're trolling. The reason why is, you could use this crazy form of pointless questioning against anything, even obvious claims.

How would I refute it? Say "brokenness is exactly _____"

What are you really expecting from this?

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Taganov wrote:

Also explain how a build that requires investment of your entire tree

All builds require an investment of your entire tree. That's kind of what a build is. An investment of skillpoints. Into your tree. And gear.

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Taganov wrote:

and expensive gear

Circular reasoning...It's expensive because of how ridiculous it is.

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Taganov wrote:

There are a number of builds that trivialize current content.

Name them.

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Taganov wrote:

I thought that was the point of soundly theory-crafted builds. How is this one so different?

At this point I'm just assuming you've never played the build.