Ways to balance low-life shavronnes builds and daggerers/wanders

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nynyny wrote:

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LSN wrote:

The main point of balance is balance. Balance in a game is essential. Imagine chess where one player starts without the queen. The question is if the other player gets a queen or yours must be removed too. In PoE this is easy to answer: Low-life builds are all together hopelessly overpowered. If we asked to make everything in endgame as overpowered as low-life builds the game would be completely pointless to play. Therefore ppl legitimately ask for nerfs of the low-life mechanic. Shavs does not need a nerf, it anyway just would go legacy and nothing changed.

Unbelievable. This has to be some elaborate ruse. Another joker who compares a gear grinder to a competitive game and thinks that the proper importance of balance is comparable in any way.

Youre not playing against anyone in this game. Youre not competiting with anyone. So him clearing shit faster with an endgame build (that you also have access to if you would want to play it) has no god damn meaning. Unless you start to run CoE/ST in 4 hour races.

Well said!

Still it is not about you to decide where balance is important and where not if you got no idea about stuff. Balance in fact is important in all kind of games. Anyway if it is not important for your I wonder where the problem is if it gets balanced.

You say its not important in PoE. So what you think justifies that low-life builds obviously have barely any downsides and life/es builds - no matter how many mirror items you use - should be valued nothing against this an be not even half as effective? The price of the items? Bad point because the other setups can be equally expensive and anyway the price of the low-life items just adapted to its level of overpoweredness.

Kasub said it best earlier, when the best course of action for spell casters, melee, bows, etc. Is always lowlife, that's a clear indication it's a problem.

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PoE is actually a highly competitive action rpg even outside races. Same way WoW pve is competitive.

You have so little clue what youre talking about that it actually hurts. Atziri was the first mob ever that people actually raced towards. The problem with this game is that the entire gearing process is RNG based which makes a competitive element irrelevant even if it would exist.

MMO progress raiding for top 50 kills has a goal. You kill X boss to get a world first. Meanwhile in PoE Atziri was the first boss ever people wanted to down quickly, a boss that required you to invest time in Standard and Invasion and have a shit ton of luck in terms of item drops. The game has yet to actually implement endgame. Before that happens it will never be competitive, its not even made to be.

Unless you wanna call a race to level 100 competitive.

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Balance is also important to keep the game enjoyable. Variety by having many toptier builds is how that's done.

More subjective bullshit. X being more powerful than A, B and C doesnt make A, B and useless. You simply decide for yourself that you cant be bothered to play them over X. The builds still are powerful and clear content fast, you autism just restricts you from playing them because a select build is even better.

That doesnt make less builds viable on paper, just in your head.

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what you think justifies that low-life builds obviously have barely any downsides and life/es builds - no matter how many mirror items you use - should be valued nothing against this an be not even half as effective?

I dont need to justify shit, thats the entire point. You invest a lot of time in making a build work, that justifies it being powerful.

Said build doesnt have a negative impact on anyones gaming experience unless youre butthurt for whatever reason that might be. It increases to cost of build specific items and ESPECIALLY in a build like this one, a build that uses so much build specific shit, that only drives the cost for all other builds into the ground, making the gear for said builds way cheaper due to shit tons of items being on the market and no one buying them. What do you think a Shivers is worth when no one thinks about running FP and what its worth when everyone wants to? And thats exactly how it goes with so many other builds. So one build being broken basically plays into your hands.

Other builds arent bad. You, as well as a shit ton of other people simply decide for yourself that they arent worth the effort. That doesnt make them not viable though.

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Chundadragon wrote:

Yep, gonna agree with you there. Want to be OP in this game? You know how to do it.

Problem imho, is less the fact the CoE-Shavs make you OP, it's literally the only top tier gearing strategy - crit or non-crit. Thinking about the RF-CoE Soul Taker Cycloners with about 150k DPS here.

Life-based 2H Cycloner is awesome and I love what Tommie has done but equip a dagger and cyclone and we can quadruple your DPS :)

When the ultra-endgame is singular, I think that is when people like to QQ. I'm all for CoE-Shavs, I think it's a good mechanic but there needs to be more diversity. Nowhere else do you get those kind of multipliers stacked together.

There needs to be ultra-endgame for life. Right now, ultra-endgame for life is called ES. Fuck you life. I don't believe that GGG intended for ES to be the endgame for Life, especially as the classes such as Duelist have such a disadvantage in that region.

I realise to enable this, GGG will probably need to shit on current builds/create a life-based unique that competes with CoE - but remember when Shavs came out? That's what GGG did back there.

Some shit I posted about a month ago.

People QQ whenever they feel like they want to be butthurt about something.

They QQed about Elemental Hit in Beta when FP and GS were incredibly strong and more than decent alternatives
They QQed about Lighting Arrow after release when Power Siphon, FP, Cleave and Spark were decent alternatives
They QQed about LL Spork and said that Life was useless when there were BoR ST users who a had 7k+ without a Kaoms and could clear almost everything safer than a Sporker could ever do

This shit will never stop. They will always find something to complain about. Endgame never has been exlusively one build. People just think that because one build has advantages over others that makes it the only thing to play. And thats wrong, its as simple as that.

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Said build doesnt have a negative impact on anyones gaming experience unless youre butthurt for whatever reason that might be.

Sure it does. When you run 78 maps with anything else than low-life/ranged you are just running behind and watch screens full of monsters falling 1shot within a second and bosses fall in 5-10 seconds. That tremendously affects my gameplay experience because there is no way in decently play this game other than switching to low-life/ranged myself. And guess what, I decided to play a melee/life char because this is what I enjoy most and used to play in diablo 1, diablo 2 and now as well in PoE. You basically say that my choice is not viable and I should simply switch to low-life/ranged as well. But I wont and nor will many others. Instead they will just quit the game for good.

You probably didnt get the fact that little imbalances alone are not the problem but more so how much overpowered this stuff is. I have no problem with low-life builds being more powerful. But it can't be 200-300% clearspeed on maps and 1000-5000% on boss kills. This is just out of all bounds.

Now explain me, why balance would not be an issue for me when playing this game? I haven't seen anything else than ranting yet.

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People QQ whenever they feel like they want to be butthurt about something.

Sure, sure dude! In my eyes you are QQing about ppl legitimately asking for balance. I guess it will be hard to deny this.

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When you run 78 maps with anything else than low-life/ranged you are just running behind and watch screens full of monsters falling 1shot within a second and bosses fall in 5-10 seconds

So youre basically saying you want to destroy their fun because your butthurt about clearing the mobs in the map too fast? The map you dont need to be in to begin with, right? Who forces you to run with them? Who forces you to not look for people who play different builds?

Let me answer that question for you: no one. You decide for yourself to be pissed. Thats like complaining about a meal tasting like shit but reordering it day after day. Youre the perfect example for todays generation of gamers. Do shit you dislike just to complain about it.

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You basically say that my choice is not viable and I should simply switch to low-life/ranged as well. But I wont and nor will many others. Instead they will just quit the game for good.

I say that your choice is viable. You simply decide for yourself that it isnt because X is stronger than Y.

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LSN wrote:

I have no problem with low-life builds being more powerful. But it can't be 200-300% clearspeed on maps and 1000-5000% on boss kills. This is just out of all bounds.

don't bother

you're talking to a guy who said it would be literally 100% fine if there was a combination of items that allowed you to just press a button and instakill the entire map

to somebody who is using this kind of nonlogic, balance is not a concept. out of bounds is not a concept. broken is not a concept.

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nynyny wrote:

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When you run 78 maps with anything else than low-life/ranged you are just running behind and watch screens full of monsters falling 1shot within a second and bosses fall in 5-10 seconds

So youre basically saying you want to destroy their fun because your butthurt about clearing the mobs in the map too fast? The map you dont need to be in to begin with, right? Who forces you to run with them? Who forces you to not look for people who play different builds?

Let me answer that question for you: no one. You decide for yourself to be pissed. Thats like complaining about a meal tasting like shit but reordering it day after day. Youre the perfect example for todays generation of gamers. Do shit you dislike just to complain about it.

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You basically say that my choice is not viable and I should simply switch to low-life/ranged as well. But I wont and nor will many others. Instead they will just quit the game for good.

I say that your choice is viable. You simply decide for yourself that it isnt because X is stronger than Y.

You dont get it at all. If you want to proceed in high levels you have to find groups to play with and these groups do 78 rotations. Either I play in these groups or I don't and then can quit the game, easy as this. There are no groups around where no low-life/ST or low-life builds in general are inside. Anyway it is about clearing the maps the fastest possible way and from this perspective it would be stupid to run without them.

So what is left? Quitting the game or running behind in 78 maps or going low-life myself - as previously mentioned.

Why do you even argue about endgame issues when your highest charackter is a lvl 81 witch? Did you ever even see how these low-life chars play out when being fully geared in maps or especially against bosses? It is imbalance on a ridiculous level.

This wasnt true in OS or NE, and certainly isnt true now. People were always able to sustain high level maps if they invested enough time. There were quite a few people who solo ran shrines back in the days, back when mapping was way more expensive than it is now. Stop making up shit to strengthen your argument.

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Anyway it is about clearing the maps the fastest possible way and from this perspective it would be stupid to run without them anyway.

So youre complaining about min maxing then? Well, then better get ready, because you will complain about the same shit in 2 months again. Perfect balance is impossible, meaning that there always be something that is the best and thats usually what everybody plays. Maybe its going to be Frenzy, and maybe its just going to be better by 10%, but that doesnt change the fact that you will chasing them through the maps again, and that everybody will play it.

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Why do you even argue about endgame issues when your highest charackter is a lvl 81 witch? Did you ever even see how these low-life chars play out when being fully geared in maps or especially against bosses? It is imbalance on a ridiculous level.

Because I was top 50 in OS and NE for a while. As I told someone else in here already, youre welcome to check my thread history to find my LL builds.

I simply didnt bother playing Invasion because I lacked time. That doesnt mean that the situation youre in is any different to the situation people were in in OS/NE/HC or ever.