What's wrong with deterministic crafting?

"

Draegnarrr wrote:

Or just get the in-game wallet out and buy a build you can't lose on if you really want to zzzzz through, good old HoWA Jugg etc.

Well, this is what brought us to the topic of this thread. As casual player that wallet don't reach 100ex easily, what I need, as example, to further improve my Discharge build.

Now, with harvest craft,a s it was last league even, not even talking about the broken release, which I even agree was too OP, I could have incrementally improved some pieces of my gear and build myself up.

Now, I have to rely on the market, and the prices of the next tier items are just not reachable in the time I have.

"

Well, that sucks then hahaha, because what is left, is the bosses and juiced maps. The creme de la creme. The fun stuff after all the grind. The reason you put so much time in to the game.

To more veteran players the game begins when you finish your atlas and got 10/10 Maven points in every zone and 12/12 in your Uncharted Realms.

Everything prior to this is just the midgame honestly.

PoE is just a game of efficiency and doing the right things.
Best way to learn what to do is watching videos from content creators like Pathofmatth.

If you succesfully follow a proper buildguide with alot of information and testimonies backing it up while watching videos from tradeleague contentcreators like Matt you will easily earn your first Headhunter or Mirrors in a couple of days. That's just how the game is.

And when you've done it once it's ingrained into you and you'll be able to farm currency like a machine in the future.
There's so much things to do in this game and unfortunately 97% of the playerbase is doing the wrong thing when it comes to moneymaking and character progress.

Though, who am I to judge who's doing the right or the wrong thing? Ultimately it's all about having fun while you're playing.
If all I cared about was making money I would learn how to flip and profitcraft making 25 ex/hour but I hate playing the market so I don't because I like to atleast play the game I'm playing.

"

Orbaal wrote:

A good player in PoE does research and figures it out. A bad one doesnt and blames the game instead.

You miss the point I think.

This is not about crafting being 'too hard' for players. Its more that many people don't find gamble-crafting fun, therefore choose not to engage the mechanic.

Crafting surely is rewarding (literally the most rewarding part of the game for items, or perhaps tied with trade) so if people are not using it, its probably because its not very fun to a significant group of players.

When you combine this with intentionally making trade unpleasant and frustrating to use, you have a 'fun' issue in the game, not a 'difficulty' issue.

Literally no one would say trade is difficult, its just annoying on purpose. Same with crafting (its slightly more difficult, but its not that bad I agree).

"

trixxar wrote:

"

Orbaal wrote:

A good player in PoE does research and figures it out. A bad one doesnt and blames the game instead.

You miss the point I think.

This is not about crafting being 'too hard' for players. Its more that many people don't find gamble-crafting fun, therefore choose not to engage the mechanic.

You might be right, I just dont think you are.

Simply because too many players will try to hide behind the "100ex needed to play endgame" meme, which just isnt true. If those players would understand the very basics of crafting, they would not only be able to drop that number to 10ex or 20ex tops but also profit off "bricked" crafts.
And if that difference of 80-90ex isnt motivation enough to engage with crafting or gambling mechanics, well then dont expect any sympathy as far as Im concerned.

They are free to grind for those 80-90ex after all or flip items all day, if they prefer to do that and simply buy those items.
Its not hard to do it, its just boring in my book and I would rather craft my stuff myself. Each his own I guess.

However none of this is happening, instead the "100ex" meme is well and alive, blaming the game is just easier than actually doing what needs to be done.
This is whats annoying me and to be very clear: PoE is far from perfect and does suffer from severe issues.
Needing 100ex to play endgame isnt one of them tho.


To clarify: By Endgame I do mean content from red maps up to Sirus / Uber Elder and the like. Anything beyond Id label late endgame.

I agree you don't need much, my favorite thing is beating endgame (not late endgame 100% deli maps, just the bosses) with 100c builds.

My point is less what memes people use on the forums and more what gear they have, how people responded to Harvest, the number of people selling vs buying crafting materials (particularly in bulk), availability of bases on trade, etc.

Honestly, if all players truly engaged in crafting (1) the game would be a lot easier for most everyone, (2) crafting material costs would skyrocket, (3) you'd have a lot fewer 'whales' selling 50 ex items and more people with 3-5ex items.

I think overall it would be great for the game. But I suspect GGG will not achieve that with gamble-crafts.

This thread, at least from what Ive read, is less about the OMG power of Harvest to get six T1s, and more about some form of non-gamble-crafting of any power.

"

Orbaal wrote:

"

trixxar wrote:

"

Orbaal wrote:

A good player in PoE does research and figures it out. A bad one doesnt and blames the game instead.

You miss the point I think.

This is not about crafting being 'too hard' for players. Its more that many people don't find gamble-crafting fun, therefore choose not to engage the mechanic.

You might be right, I just dont think you are.

Simply because too many players will try to hide behind the "100ex needed to play endgame" meme, which just isnt true. If those players would understand the very basics of crafting, they would not only be able to drop that number to 10ex or 20ex tops but also profit off "bricked" crafts.
And if that difference of 80-90ex isnt motivation enough to engage with crafting or gambling mechanics, well then dont expect any sympathy as far as Im concerned.

They are free to grind for those 80-90ex after all or flip items all day, if they prefer to do that and simply buy those items.
Its not hard to do it, its just boring in my book and I would rather craft my stuff myself. Each his own I guess.

However none of this is happening, instead the "100ex" meme is well and alive, blaming the game is just easier than actually doing what needs to be done.
This is whats annoying me and to be very clear: PoE is far from perfect and does suffer from severe issues.
Needing 100ex to play endgame isnt one of them tho.


To clarify: By Endgame I do mean content from red maps up to Sirus / Uber Elder and the like. Anything beyond Id label late endgame.

For the same reason most people don't enjoy flipping, most people don't enjoy crafting.

It's not hard to understand why people who play this game don't enjoy being hideout warriors. Everyone already knows crafting (and flipping) is the most profitable way to play this game. It's no secret.

Majority just hate the crafting system and choose not to engage with it. That's where people like you come in. You actively choose to fill the gap in supply and you make alot of money from it.

To newer players, the constant fear of maybe bricking your item is a major disincentive to their character progression.
You sound like a player who probably is able to farm alot of currency so you probably have had your bad runs and spent 20 ex on an item which went to crap and you had to use a Einjar frog to begin from route 1 again.

Imagine being a newer player or a casual who has managed to farm up, say 10 ex over a weekend and spent it all trying to craft an item ending up with the same white base they started with.
It's a horrible feeling, even if you statistically should profit from crafting your gear yourself in the end.

Instead of risking good/bad luck with crafting their own gear, majority just prefers to consistently farm their money and buy whatever they need from trade. It's safe and no RNG involved. Is it less cost efficient? Absolutely.
But you don't risk bricking your items with annoying sunk costs.

Majority of people simply don't enjoy the current crafting mechanics of the game.
That's why very few players engage with the crafting system and profit crafters remain the richest players in the game.

I think to an extent deterministic crafting is acceptable. On any base ilvl 75 or below it should be like it used to be.


On any item 76+ it should no longer be accessible. This allows all players new and old to make some items for progression purposes but also gets rid of the ability to guarantee mirror tier items.


There's also a second way they could have done it, make it impossible for deterministic crafting to hit tier 1-2 modifiers. Then the market won't be flooded with mirror tier items.


I think what they did was just plain lazy. Nothing wrong with slowing power creep but if the current state is the only solution they believed they had. Unreal.

They come up with a lot of innovative ideas but they widely missed the mark with what the community needs, especially when it concerns newer players. You allow a deterministic crafting system that helps newer players engage and understand how crafting works and what MOD tags are. Then by repeatedly using the simple system they gain a better understanding of the more complicated ones. At the same time they don't have the ability to break the game.


/edit

I thought when harvest was introduced it was there to help simplify crafting for players who did not understand it currently. While helping those newer players learn and push content.

"

Deadandlivin wrote:

Spoiler

For the same reason most people don't enjoy flipping, most people don't enjoy crafting.

It's not hard to understand why people who play this game don't enjoy being hideout warriors. Everyone already knows crafting (and flipping) is the most profitable way to play this game. It's no secret.

Majority just hate the crafting system and choose not to engage with it. That's where people like you come in. You actively choose to fill the gap in supply and you make alot of money from it.

To newer players, the constant fear of maybe bricking your item is a major disincentive to their character progression.
You sound like a player who probably is able to farm alot of currency so you probably have had your bad runs and spent 20 ex on an item which went to crap and you had to use a Einjar frog to begin from route 1 again.

Imagine being a newer player or a casual who has managed to farm up, say 10 ex over a weekend and spent it all trying to craft an item ending up with the same white base they started with.
It's a horrible feeling, even if you statistically should profit from crafting your gear yourself in the end.

Instead of risking good/bad luck with crafting their own gear, majority just prefers to consistently farm their money and buy whatever they need from trade. It's safe and no RNG involved. Is it less cost efficient? Absolutely.
But you don't risk bricking your items with annoying sunk costs.

Majority of people simply don't enjoy the current crafting mechanics of the game.
That's why very few players engage with the crafting system and profit crafters remain the richest players in the game.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, however I was talking about basic crafting to beat content up to Sirus and Uber Elder.

It doesnt take much more than throwing some Essences, Fossils or Harvest crafts onto decent bases or (cluster) jewels to get there.
At no point you´d have to put 20ex on the line - not even 2ex - to get this done.

At most you´d multimod one or two items, but there is no risk bricking it involved.
You´ll get decent bases and enough crafting material anyways while unlocking the atlas, passives and collecting bosses for Mavens 10-way fights and her Uncharted Realm.


The only real risk I can see here would be trying to 6l an item manually. But if you do that, Id expect you to know there is a recipe available to get that 6l for a fixed fee and Id also expect you know its a gamble you are taking at your own peril, if you dont want to pay 1500 fusings.

As long as you can achieve about 2 mill upfront or 1 mill DoT dps plus good enough defenses the content I was talking about is perfectly manageable.
I fail to see the issue here. It just doesnt require 100ex to buy the gear or 20ex crafting gambles.
Basic crafting will do up to this point and thats what I was talking about.

Meh, TencentGGG missed the mark with their implementation of "deterministic crafting" via Harvest.

TencentGGG should make once and for all T0/T1 mods only available via drop/harsh encounter only. This is what Last Epoch "got right" from the start.

Also they should also adjust the mod pool and remove all <T6 mods on rares of ilvl >82. They could balance by weighting still, and skew the chance of getting MULTIPLE >T3 mods on items, the same for higher values via divining, so "perfect items" will ALWAYS REQUIRE YOU TO PLAY THE GAME TO GET THE DESIRED BASE WITH T0/T1 MODS AT LEAST, then you can start "perfecting it", which should still require the "grind" and asinine masses of currency sunk for "mirrorable" items...

They should also limit the Harvest mods efficiency to AT MOST 5 levels discrepancy, instead of 10, and they could "reduce the weight" for obtaining multiple relevant mods together, the higher the Harvest mod is compared to ilvl - with the sole exception for ilvl 100 items, which would have "optimal" weighting >82 Harvest crafts.

Aislin T4 shouldn't get nerfed, but the Catarina fight should get more difficult while having Aislin T4 - and I don't mean the regular "slap moar % HP + damage", but a requirement of conditions that can't by navigated via over-sufficient HP + damage, and would require you to do a couple of specific tasks, akin to "Lab"...

Not to mention the asinine Harvest bench limitations regarding the number of stored crats should be addressed by further enlarging the limit depending on Awakening tier the Oshabi fight got won, and each Harvest craft from the upper tiers, like target augments, add influenced mod, synthetize, even reroll prefix/suffix SHOULD APPLY A TAG TO THE ITEM - like "HARVESTED/IMPROVED/FORGED" THAT WOULD WORK AKIN TO SPLIT, BUT INSTEAD ALLOW FURTHER HARVEST CRAFTS TO ONLY BE APPLIED BY THE ITEM ORIGINAL LOOTER - heck, they could add them in the damn name tag too akin to "Cassius's Forged Oblivion Gaze", with the original looter's name appearing on the advanced item view only (some of us use names with many letters and would clutter the screen)...

That's how they should encourage PROPER CRAFTING and add "PROPER WEIGHT" to items, by making them obtainable ONLY VIA END GAME/LATE END GAME ENCOUNERS FOR THE "BASES", AND THE "PERFECTIONING" SHOULD REQUIRE HEAVY INVESTMENT TOO...

As always, it's a question of balance and scaling properly the difficulty vs reward ratios...

No one should argue that current "RNG gambling" that is employed as "crafting" in PoE is both easy to understand AND "FUN" when you're on the "receiving" end on a long "loosing streak"...

Things should be addressed in a proper manner way before our next "lord & saviour" PoE 2 appears, so they could test their changes with a BETA...

First season player here. I quite enjoy the current high-end crafting system. It’s as one of the above posters said…you have to be willing to spend a few exalts in order to hit the mods you really want and at near T1 across the board. Early on when my bank was small, I’d just sell the item immediately if it missed (sell the bricked attempts). Even that was marginally profitable on the whole. Now with more banked up, I don’t mind throwing ~20 exalts into an item craft for a personal upgrade or at least until it hits high-sale value, which again often results in at least marginal profits. Crafting an item for minimum price and hitting big on the first try for a 1000% profit to the tune of 30-60ex is exhilarating for me, at least.

Judging by the remarks of times gone by, crafting superb items was way too easy and cheap. Everyone was doing it, so opportunity to win in the market was slim. I don’t know why players (even casuals) would want easy access to top-tier item. It’s counter-intuitive. Sure the crafting system as a whole could be better, but at least I’m quite satisfied. More profits for me if everyone else thinks it’s too expensive or cumbersome.

One more thing of note. I often see people championing the idea that “actually playing the game” is somehow superior than crafting, flipping (being a hideout warrior). Personally, I like being casual some of the time in the sense of relaxing in my hideout, monitoring the web for a few bases and or flips, alch-spamming a bit, doing a bit of “casino crafting,” albeit in the most intelligent way possible. I’ll spend 3 hours doing that and maybe 1 hour of running maps or whatever. It’s my preferred way to play. If I spend even 50% or more of my playtime mapping, I’ll either get bored or mentally tired first. I can’t help but think many of the complainers on here who would rather spend 95%+of their time running maps are part of a very outspoken minority.