What's wrong with deterministic crafting?

1. Harvest was a godsend for casuals, but also made possible for a minuscule substract of the player base to create god tier/perfect items.
Methods involved are irrelevant, being either nolifing or tft. It's the end result which bothered developers, and nothing else mattered.


2. Big brains in the office have a proven record of tunnel vision regarding certain design decisions and basic principles.
Hence "deterministic" + "achievable" went down the drain. Bad words.


It's safe to say harvest doesn't belong to this game, hence it had to die.
Not that it was bad or too imba, it just had to. It's fairly sure it's considered a major mistake, and if they could delete it without getting a painful backlash, they would.

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Krayken wrote:

Min maxing is supposed to be hard. Harvest made it a joke.

There is a lot of hyperbole thrown around on both sides of the harvest issue, but lets pause a moment to look at this one.

To min max an item you want 6 T1 or T2 items. You were correct that beating content doesnt require it, but you are saying max out here.

So to get that, even with harvest, would take, for a single item (assuming you buy base or use your own currency to get 2-3 T1 rolls before you even start).... 50 ex minimum? At 1ex per harvest, which is way underestimating during much of ritual, 50 tries to get all Tier 1 or Tier 2 of a specific mod?

During which, you hand your item to 50 different people who could take it, and GGG would do nothing because you are handing it to them, they are not violating anything actually in the TOS by keeping it.

You would also have to get lucky to do it in 50 rolls, even with decent blocking which is not even possible for many highly desired mods.

So THAT is a joke?

Again, you arent the only one exaggerating, but that claim kinda stood out.

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trixxar wrote:

"

Krayken wrote:

Min maxing is supposed to be hard. Harvest made it a joke.

There is a lot of hyperbole thrown around on both sides of the harvest issue, but lets pause a moment to look at this one.

To min max an item you want 6 T1 or T2 items. You were correct that beating content doesnt require it, but you are saying max out here.

Actually, "min-maxing" would require you to have perfect double-corrupted items with perfectly divined T1 rolls all over the place, and/or perfect-triple-implicit synthesized items, all with the proper enchantments and/or tailoring/tinkering orbs applied. Something that is very hard to do even with full-blown Harvest.

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Vennto wrote:

The crafting-system of Last Epoch was mentioned a few times here. I like this one, it´s clever, intuitive, and definately easier than PoE. But is it more deterministic? Honestly, I don´t think so, not in the sense of what we´re discussing here (that is having 6x T1 stats). To reach that in LE you need also tons of bases and pray to RNGesus that your item does not fracture/brick, if you aim for the best of the best the chance of not bricking gets incredibly low. Where´s the difference between using 400 bases for 1 base to not brick in LE or to throw 400 fossils on one base to get the stats you want in PoE? There is none. For some reason people just FEEL that it is more deterministic, when in fact it really isn´t.

The difference is that LEs crafting system creates tons of usable to good to almost-perfect items in the process though, while being a lot more deterministic. BTW, the deterministic aspect doesn't just help make it feel better, it also prevents the generation of lots of very-good-but-not-for-my-character items that are then dumped to trade, which makes good items (in trade league) generally more available, which leads to the devs nerfing the "spawn rates" of good items again. I would argue that LEs crafting system design is simply superior to the one of PoE.

In my opinion nothing was wrong with Harvest crafting i saw the natural evolution of ARPGs in it (less gamble more theory crafting and realization).

I could keep playing for years crafting for and realizing builds. When one build is done id be doing the next one. And for those builds proven worthy id release a guide on them to share it with the community before i would go on and min/max the next project. Really its what i was expecting of PoE as its evolution.

Ultimatuvely crafting ala Harvest is one of the most controversial topics in game history of PoE. Everyone have an opinion. No side will convince the other side there will never be a win here. Its only what "should" and "should not" be based on perceptions and opinions.

So i just state my opinion: Harvest from 3.13 was great in its natural form. Best gaming experience i had in this game.

Personally, I think that they should keep (or have kept) Harvest crafting on Standard league, and tweaked it on Challenge league. That way, everyone could have chosen what suits him or her best. Standard has all kinds of legacy stuff anyway, so balance can't be an issue there (also, legacy Harvest crafts still linger, I have a few of them on my bench).

There are certainly players that enjoy the game more with Harvest crafting, and there are certainly ones that enjoy it more without. You can't please both, that is, unless you provide separate environments for both, and Standard and Challenge leagues already provide an almost ideal setup for that.

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dagul23 wrote:

They can always bump up the game's difficulty...

It's about "Reproducibility and Non-reproducibility" (or Rigor and Ambiguity.)

Their answer is to set the possible range of the game difficulty and let us choose the difficulty we want to face. ("partially" deterministic game progression)

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trixxar wrote:

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Krayken wrote:

Min maxing is supposed to be hard. Harvest made it a joke.

There is a lot of hyperbole thrown around on both sides of the harvest issue, but lets pause a moment to look at this one.

To min max an item you want 6 T1 or T2 items. You were correct that beating content doesnt require it, but you are saying max out here.

So to get that, even with harvest, would take, for a single item (assuming you buy base or use your own currency to get 2-3 T1 rolls before you even start).... 50 ex minimum? At 1ex per harvest, which is way underestimating during much of ritual, 50 tries to get all Tier 1 or Tier 2 of a specific mod?

During which, you hand your item to 50 different people who could take it, and GGG would do nothing because you are handing it to them, they are not violating anything actually in the TOS by keeping it.

You would also have to get lucky to do it in 50 rolls, even with decent blocking which is not even possible for many highly desired mods.

So THAT is a joke?

Again, you arent the only one exaggerating, but that claim kinda stood out.

50 ex is nothing for a 6x t1 item. Thats like 1/10th of a mirror.

"

Krayken wrote:

50 ex is nothing for a 6x t1 item. Thats like 1/10th of a mirror.

It doesn't matter, though, because most players in any given league never see either. And that'd be for one item, not for the whole set.

Also, a mirror is nothing. That's like 1/10th of a good triple-implicit synthesized item.

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Krayken wrote:

50 ex is nothing for a 6x t1 item. Thats like 1/10th of a mirror.

Exactly, thank you.

So a build which is a 'joke' to make is 500ex?

Thats my point on hyperbole.

Yes, Harvest made great items easier than ever before for min maxxers who were likely already doing 100M+ dps.

However, for most players, even a single item maxed is not achievable given their play time/style, much less a build.

GGG sided with the min/maxxers and stomped everyone else with no regard, just like they did with streamer preference on launch.

I don't really see how they could have done a worse job on showing anyone but streamers/maxxers that the game doesn't care about their business.

"

trixxar wrote:

Exactly, thank you.

So a build which is a 'joke' to make is 500ex?

Thats my point on hyperbole.

Yes, Harvest made great items easier than ever before for min maxxers who were likely already doing 100M+ dps.

However, for most players, even a single item maxed is not achievable given their play time/style, much less a build.

GGG sided with the min/maxxers and stomped everyone else with no regard, just like they did with streamer preference on launch.

I don't really see how they could have done a worse job on showing anyone but streamers/maxxers that the game doesn't care about their business.

"Maxxers" will get their gear anyway, even if every "crafting" but chaos spamming will be nerfed to shits, mmkay.

As for harvest, even from my casual ssf point of view, it was broken when first introduced and beyond broken in 3.13, surely fun but nevertheless broken. Current nerfs are kinda disappointing tho, something in the middle would have been better for sure.

Also, why keep kicking dead horse called "streamer priority". Having illusions about everyone being equal is nice and all, but it's an utopia at best. Streamers aside, as an example - do you say think that some generic 40yo dad of three with responsibilities would ever be equal to some 17yo guy who got all day to play, better reflexes etcetera etcetera? No of course.
Umm, and if you compare poe streamers to some generic VIP clients of some store, or even better to these press guys that usually get to some "closed premiere" of some movie, there's nothing wrong with them having some priority, basically being free PR team and all. What WAS shit and actually was worth complaining about is the crappy league start itself, i'd rather let the streamers have their "free coffee" and competition in basically non-competitive game, with all these crashes it was like voluntarily eating a huge cactus anyway.