What's wrong with deterministic crafting?
" Yesssssssssss! I thought I was the only one that thought this way. I once wrote up a wall o' text for a separate General Discussion thread about "do you like the best items being dropped or crafted" but the forum ate my draft. Basically a lot of people talk about "loot should feel valuable" but the question is - what kind of loot? Valued in what way - in terms of free trade value? In terms of usability for your character? In terms of crafting power? Honestly, ever since the beginning of the game (open beta), the path to the very best items has always been crafting, not RNG drops. And I think I am fine with that, as it does give more rewarding feeling to when you can work to improve your items until they are very shiny and powerful. It feels like you've created something extraordinary, something special that puts it above what you could loot. The only caveat is that crafting in POE has also always been controlled gambling. The question is, how much "control" does GGG want to give us on those gambles? Evidently 3.13 Harvest was too much control in their eyes. Need game info? Check out the Wiki at: https://www.poewiki.net/ Contact support@grindinggear.com for account issues. Check out How to Report Bugs + Post Images at: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/18347 Last edited by adghar#1824 on Jul 15, 2021, 2:45:32 PM
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" Couldn´t agree more with anything you said :D And I am totally open about a debate how much control or probabilistic properties of crafting are needed, as I also understand that being not able to produce and upgrade can feel like a big waste of time. As well, I can also agree to the fact that we drop way too much shit and loot would be in a better place if you drop only 20% of it, but better stuff. But I am a firm believer that the complexity and the focus around crafting is what makes PoE unique compared to other games. At least thats why I am playing it. If you just have to run around aimlessly and hope for the best then I might as well play something else, for me thats not what poe is about. |
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" No one should run around and "loot the best of the best" from those "puny" encounters. If you would instead LOOT an item with at least synergizing mods that you would then further craft as close to "perfection as possible", that would add more WEIGHT to the item, instead of either dropping it OR purchasing a base then gambling orbs until you succeed "crafting" it "as desired"... Such an item crafting system would be more IMPACTFUL as it would require players to actually test themselves versus the "end game content" and those crafted items would directly improve their experience versus said content. As I said before, powerful crafting mods should lock items to the player that applied such a mod, so further increasing the power of the item should be ON A PLAYER BASIS, not a community working to actively surpass the crafting mod scarcity... Those item bases should drop versus the most difficult encounter, those powerful crafting mods should be SCARCE and also be protected by powerful encounters. Crafting should be a relevant part of the NEED TO IMPROVE THE ITEMS OF A CHARACTER, as long as it serves the purpose of helping that characters' power grow to tackle even more difficult content. Basic crafting akin to benchcraft mods should be easily available for all crafters, yet for higher mods, even those crafters should "play the game" instead of "trading" their way into wealth that serve no other purpose except amassing pixel currency. PoE has a different crafting focus compared to most ARPGs where dropped loot "RULES", but it also has the disadvantage of having the worst DANGER/REWARD RATIOS of those... Sadly, TencentGGG missed the entire purpose of a worthy upgrade path that ENTICES playing the game for improved item acquisition and character development... PSS: Our almighty TencentGGG overlords are very scrupulous regarding criticizing their abilities to take proper decisions and consider everything "needlessly harsh and condescending"...
Good to know "free speech" doesn't apply in any form or manner on the forums these days... |
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The way last Epoch does it is great you can craft gear, but the best rolls are drop only
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Was this thread intentionally buried now?
Once I find the time, I will definitely check out Last Epoch and its crafting system. It seems much more clean and focused and overall useful than PoE's to me. Remove Horticrafting station storage limit.
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" I can get behind that reasoning but i despise GGG crafting. The complexity and difficulty of crafting is an allure for some but for me it is one of the worst aspects of the game. The way crafting is set up is you walk away is with gold or you end up eating shit. The crafting has come a long way from alt+regal exalt eternal bs, thank god. Theres beast, betrayal, delve, harvest etc. it is a much more complex and robust crafting system. The complexity isnt really the problem, running around doing content to craft your item sounds like a reasonable consequence, it is the RNG. ALL crafting costs money, money you have to farm up or make (trading or crafting) for crafting. So you have to farm currencies for your crafting. The more experienced player spend less for crafting because of their knowledge and thats cool (knowledge is power w/e) the average joe and intermediate players on the other hand will most likely spend their fortune and walk away with the taste of shit in their mouths. To me thats where the problem lies. Current crafting system is too RNG for many people's taste and it costs too much money. Thats why many people just buy shit(including me). Depending on what youre crafting the cost of crafting an item could be 5ex - 50ex depending on how lucky you are. Also if you want elevated and all that other goodstuff well that could be well over 50ex IF YOURE LUCKY it could be well below that, you probably have more experience with endgame crafting so correct me if im worng. I just wish there were cheaper and easier ways to get items and the crafting has less randomness. Im not looking for double elevated tailwind elusive, t1 life, t1 ms, t1 chaos res but im fine with tailwind elusive, 40-60 life, 20 ms, 15-20 chaos res. I havent really crafted but depending on base an elusive or tailwind base is atleast an ex more than a month into a league then theres the awakener orb probably 3-4 ex. 4 ex for that tailwind elusive then you get 2 shitty mods lets say i freed up a mod and now i can slap a multi mod on it and add life and ms. 6 ex for an item im perfectly happy with. But this is POE and many things could have gone wrong to get that item. For every step that could go wrong, the amount of money and time you invest in crafting that item increases. The more you try to craft that item, the more things that could go wrong. As i said before im not looking for some BIS double elevated t1 everthign boots. My example could be off but that doesnt change the fact that theres too much luck involved and you are punished harshly for every time you arent lucky. Crafting doesnt need to be less complex it needs to be less punishing. Last edited by Shanwen222#3720 on Jul 17, 2021, 4:07:10 PM
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" You say crafting doesn't need to be less complex, but your problem is the lack of understanding on crafting. For example, the tailwind + elusive boots you mentioned can be crafted deterministically. There is no RNG involved whatsoever. It's just your proposed method is not optimal. The process is as follows: 1) combine tailwind boots and redeemer boots with an influence suffix (like ailment avoidance). 2) suffixes cannot be changed and "reforge crit" to add the elusive mod. 3) T4 aisling for a movement speed mod (90%+ success rate). 4) bench craft a life mod. The important thing in PoE is to find a way to deterministically craft desired items and to find a build that uses them. If your build really needs a 50ex+ rare, your build probably sucks in the first place. For reference, I crafted an elevated chest this league that cost maybe 10-15 ex (I don't remember the exact number). The crafting was deterministic and there was no chance to "fail" the craft. It's definitely not the best chest in the world, but it is good enough to faceroll all content in the game. I agree that some items are hard to craft, but there are many items you can craft deterministically. |
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" That chest isn't good enough. That's how a lot of people argue for harvest needing to be back. An item needs to be perfect or it's trash. I even had people tell me that some of my mirror tier gear is "mediocre" in the middle of harvest arguments. People who want harvest back will only settle for that abomination of an item editor back and nothing less. |
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OK we're back. :)
If you can't control it, STOP.
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" You see, this is the crux of crafting. Casuals dislike having to learn anything about a game it seems outside the game. All this info is all over reddit and poe forums and other places. PoEDB even lets you see the entire sheet of outcomes of every crafting method. Looking at guides, looking up info, etc all dead artforms to these people who want a game as braindead as they are. I thought crafting was BS too until my friend showed me how to craft an explodey chest and realized if you're smart enough there are tons of crafting methods, available now, that can easily remove tons of the deterministic odds of crafting. However, (wish I had the link), I crafted a staff during the league of winter orb that had multiple T1-2 ice and spell damgae mods, as well as Pcoc support AND CwC support. This meant I could gem in an 8L making winter orb shoot icicle spears at bosses for improved damage. I crafted that item MOSTLY on luck but via fossil crafting and a proper base, I got lucky. That luck would feel far less if anyone could just slap whatever they want on it cough cough havrest leagues item editor cough cough. The simple fact is people don't want effort. They come from the brainless D3 where you steamroll content with glazed eyes and zero knowledge and demand this game be the same. Last edited by Necrotekk#4404 on Jul 19, 2021, 2:01:09 PM
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