What's wrong with deterministic crafting?

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Vennto wrote:

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Going to say those make a lot of sense, and I don't even really disagree with much of it.

Just wonder why people are now on board with this. I mentioned that back like 2 months ago right after the new harvest, and I got ... well, lets say not the nicest feedback for it. I can fully agree with Orbaal what Harvest does to the game and literally used words like "all-consuming" myself for it :D

Trying to reason with a child after you took it's candy away is a pointless endeavor, it's not exactly a surprise. You've got to at least wait until they are done throwing a tantrum before trying to use reason.

There is also the point that Trixxar mentioned that, even if all those arguments are very true and justified, many of us still considered 3.13 the best version of POE to date, despite all those flaws. Kind of shows how bad the game is if people are willing to swallow all those problems with a smile.

My biggest gripe with all those points however is the fact that they are missing the point. I dare say that hardly anyone arguing for harvest is actually arguing for the league mechanic itself. The league mechanic was bad. Orbaal lined out some of the reasons why. But what people wanted isn't harvest, maybe not even deterministic crafting. It's a clear means of gear progression. A situation where you chase a carrot knowing you'll catch it at some point. Instead of searching Easter eggs in the Amazonian jungle knowing full well that you'll likely die long before you found even one.

That's what harvest provided, even though in a shitty way. And that's also what everyone loving harvest wanted. As good as the build complexity and variety in this game is, the itemization part is horrible. Drops are worthless past white maps. Gambling is useless unless you have hundreds of exalts to throw away. Crafting no longer exists so all that's left is either running around like a headless chicken hoping to stumble over one of those eggs or farm currency like a slave to buy the stuff you need from others. Most of us aren't happy with either option. Going weeks and months without finding any upgrade whatsoever isn't exactly uncommon if you don't trade and most people simply don't have the patience of dealing with this for extended periods of time.

If trading wasn't the shitshow it is maybe this wouldn't be as big an issue as it is but it's literally the same trade functionality that D2 had back in 2000. Unpleasant and entirely outdated to the point where i have to ask myself why even bother with POE anymore once D2R is out. At least that game has decent PvP for long term motivation and getting the needed gear is way easier.

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QuiquePoE wrote:

You could argue that people had easier access to gear. While I think it just came from a different place.

You think? Well, you are wrong. Gear acquisition as a whole was on a all-time high during Harvest and Ritual. When gear is easier to "craft" by yourself, it's also easier to buy - when there's no restrictions.

You keep focusing on your personal playstyle and your personal experience, but seem to ignore the big picture because it doesn't suit your narrative.

Personally, I would love to go back to the Harvest/Ritual levels of gear acquisition. It suited my preferred playstyle and time schedule perfect. But as a whole? I could easily see that too many good items hit the market when everyone and their grandmother had easy access to very good gear. And I could also understand that GGG felt gear acquisition was too easy.

I've come to terms wwith the fact that I'm not important in the big picture. I'm just a part of a wheel. Why should a casual like me be able to get the best gear that easy? There will always be a line of "too hard/cumbersome/much hassle" that many people feels like they can't get past. Harvest made me go past this line by several miles, but other didn¨t. Now, I'll probably struggle with that line a little bit more, but that's more on me and my schedule, than it is about the game.

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QuiquePoE wrote:

They gutted Harvest because they didn't want to mess with TFT and this was the easiest (and lazy) way.

Here, I totally agree. GGG are too hellbent on an "free, open market" - without restrictions. One thing is clear; deterministic crafting may be impossible to implement if there are no restrictions to items or trade.

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Vennto wrote:

Just wonder why people are now on board with this.

You are grossly generalizing.

I don't really want to respond to Orbaal point for point because it would be 2 pages long and what would that accomplish?

I will say, though, that I think a portion of it is based on speculation of what GGG thinks or what GGG wants and data none of us have, totally subjective opinions (like "harvest is boing", which is a valid opinion but opposite to that of many), or seeming contradictory statements (like saying harvest makes it faster but then complaining he has to spend 20 mins thinking, or saying it's free but then complaining he has to kill dmg sponges to access it).

I want to stop on a few of his points, though:

- Identity: I agree that it borrowed or stole the function of other crafting methods to the point of overlap or obsolecence (because it is also a superior, IMO, less RNG dependant, method). But, and I know this is a very contentious opinion: In a game this bloated and with these obscured and counterintuitive crafting mechanics, I don't see that as too bad a thing, especially for new players. PoE could use some pruning.

I find Last Epoch's system a much better one.

- Atlas passives: Totally agree. My idea of harvest showing up, is not one that is tied to a region or improved by watchstones. It's a chance on any map of any region. I don't like the way it was brought back in 3.13. They could/should have done better.

- Risk/Reward: When you compare methods of acquiring gear, you cannot remove trading from the equation. What risk is there then?

If farming T11 for harvest crafts (which is also a bad implementation), let you achieve great gear power after a while, what other mundane currency generating strategy done in the aproximate same time could buy you that gear?

My experience, not playing for efficiency, is that buying it was faster. But even if it wasn't, I think I would still have preferred (as I did) to craft it myself because it's a whole other level of engagement and accomplishment. It's a much more satisfying experience to make my own gear, step by step, than just bying it done.

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Phrazz wrote:

You think? Well, you are wrong. Gear acquisition as a whole was on a all-time high during Harvest and Ritual. When gear is easier to "craft" by yourself, it's also easier to buy - when there's no restrictions.

You keep focusing on your personal playstyle and your personal experience, but seem to ignore the big picture because it doesn't suit your narrative.

No, I choose to ignore the big picture because I don't have the data. And neither do you. I can only speak for what I know.

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Phrazz wrote:

Personally, I would love to go back to the Harvest/Ritual levels of gear acquisition. It suited my preferred playstyle and time schedule perfect. But as a whole? I could easily see that too many good items hit the market when everyone and their grandmother had easy access to very good gear. And I could also understand that GGG felt gear acquisition was too easy.

I've come to terms wwith the fact that I'm not important in the big picture. I'm just a part of a wheel. Why should a casual like me be able to get the best gear that easy? There will always be a line of "too hard/cumbersome/much hassle" that many people feels like they can't get past. Harvest made me go past this line by several miles, but other didn¨t. Now, I'll probably struggle with that line a little bit more, but that's more on me and my schedule, than it is about the game.

If you saw 300 exploding chests being offered doesn't mean that they were being sold. When the demand for those, and any other items, is satisfied, then any excess of those items is wasted.

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QuiquePoE wrote:

I don't really want to respond to Orbaal point for point because it would be 2 pages long and what would that accomplish?

Probably nothing else but killing time. And isnt that a good thing while we are all waiting for the next league to kill some more time playing the game? :)

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QuiquePoE wrote:

I will say, though, that I think a portion of it is based on speculation of what GGG thinks or what GGG wants and data none of us have, totally subjective opinions (like "harvest is boing", which is a valid opinion but opposite to that of many), or seeming contradictory statements (like saying harvest makes it faster but then complaining he has to spend 20 mins thinking, or saying it's free but then complaining he has to kill dmg sponges to access it).

Erm Harvest was and still is boring because you are looking at an UI element and click buttons. Thats all Harvest is and thats not why Im playing PoE.
Now the result of those clicks might be interesting, but the interaction itself is far from interesting and therefore boring.
Thats obviously my opinion and doesnt need to be pointed out.

I wish I would spend 20 minutes in there thinking. If that was the case, I wouldnt complain about it. Its navigating through menus, selecting items, tabbing out to poedb, checking poedb for weight and tags, tabbing back into the game, clicking buttons, looking at the outcome.
Its just as cumbersome as trading is.

I fully understand that those 20 mins including the occasional harvest dmg sponge boss are opportunity costs. Thats not what I was talking about tho. What I was talking about was invested currency and there is no investment involved. Also there was barely any risk of bricking the item involved.
Pretty much all other crafting methods do require currency investment and can brick your item beyond repair.
Even tho 20 mins less farming will generate less currency, its still a net win if none of your items ever brick. Starting from scratch will cost far more time and currency than those 20 mins.

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QuiquePoE wrote:

I will say, though, that I think a portion of it is based on speculation of what GGG thinks or what GGG wants and data none of us have

Absolutely correct. I wish GGG would talk more openly about this stuff, but I get why they dont do it. Or rather I can guess why they dont do it.

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QuiquePoE wrote:

They gutted Harvest because they didn't want to mess with TFT and this was the easiest (and lazy) way.

Why do you feel the need to point out that what I said was based on speculation when you do the exact same thing? What else this statement of yours? Its pure speculation isnt it? :)

i can bet new league gonna be worst fiasko than ultimatum.

thats whithout harvest i mean. either way im not fine even if they return the spawn rates of high tier seed. i want to agument/annul influence or be done with it. and also those two elder mods for bleed and poison.

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QuiquePoE wrote:

If you saw 300 exploding chests being offered doesn't mean that they were being sold. When the demand for those, and any other items, is satisfied, then any excess of those items is wasted.

It doesn't matter. A fish knows that easier crafting (without restriction on trade) equals easier acquisition of gear for everyone. The easier you can craft something, the easier you can buy it. It's not rocket science.

So, as long as GGG are hellbent on keeping an open, free market - without any form of BoC or restriction in gear ownership, more deterministic crafting than we have now may be a pipe dream.

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Orbaal wrote:

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QuiquePoE wrote:

They gutted Harvest because they didn't want to mess with TFT and this was the easiest (and lazy) way.

Why do you feel the need to point out that what I said was based on speculation when you do the exact same thing? What else this statement of yours? Its pure speculation isnt it? :)

Yeah. They alluded to it as being one of the reasons it was so efficient to create so many good items, but my statement is no less speculative in spite of me strongly beliving in it. You're absolutely right.

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Phrazz wrote:

It doesn't matter. A fish knows that easier crafting (without restriction on trade) equals easier acquisition of gear for everyone. The easier you can craft something, the easier you can buy it. It's not rocket science.

So, as long as GGG are hellbent on keeping an open, free market - without any form of BoC or restriction in gear ownership, more deterministic crafting than we have now may be a pipe dream.

If you say so. Then the only option for those of us who hate this frustrating RNG-riddled crafting system will be to keep obtaining our gear through trade, which is also horrible, until we are fed up of this bullshit and stop playing the game.

Cheers for that.

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QuiquePoE wrote:

Then the only option for those of us who hate this frustrating RNG-riddled crafting system will be to keep obtaining our gear through trade, which is also horrible, until we are fed up of this bullshit and stop playing the game.

Cheers for that.

Pretty much!

Though, they are working on increasing the quality of dropped items, and the current crafting system isn't pure RNG if you have the know-how and, more importantly the funds.

But no matter what they do with trade or crafting; dropping/finding an upgrade will ALWAYS feel better than crafting or buying an upgrade, so the focus should be there.

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Phrazz wrote:

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QuiquePoE wrote:

Then the only option for those of us who hate this frustrating RNG-riddled crafting system will be to keep obtaining our gear through trade, which is also horrible, until we are fed up of this bullshit and stop playing the game.

Cheers for that.

Pretty much!

Though, they are working on increasing the quality of dropped items, and the current crafting system isn't pure RNG if you have the know-how and, more importantly the funds.

But no matter what they do with trade or crafting; dropping/finding an upgrade will ALWAYS feel better than crafting or buying an upgrade, so the focus should be there.

Not for everyone. I personally like that this game is so focussed around crafting. "Dropping" an upgrade is what every damn ARPG does. This time I am finally able to produce them on my own and I love it. When I drop something I don´t feel any accomplishment, as it was just luck. If I craft my own items I know that I was the one going into a deliberate process with spending currency to produce a certain item for my build. Feels way more satisfying.