What's wrong with deterministic crafting?

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Van318 wrote:

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trixxar wrote:

I wasn't actually referencing you or talking about you. Its not particularly interesting talking to someone who just rants in walls of text, changes their argument every post, has selective memory, and uses "literally" without knowing what it means...



But since you asked;



"What part of me saying "harvest is fine as is" translates into "i like gambling and i like longer periods of time spend in the league" ?"

Also Tin_foil: "Deterministic crafting ISNT fun."

Non-deterministic crafting is gambling. You can call it RNG as well if you prefer

Tin_foil: "you progress faster than ever with it."

It seems reasonable to say people who progress faster generally conquer the content and leave sooner. I.e. spend less time progressing each league.

To make it REALLY simple, I mean if you had mirror tier gear at the end of day 1, you would quit sooner each league, right? Hence, you understand original Harvest gives you better gear faster, i.e. less time in league. Very basic concept.

Why getting better gear faster will lead to less time in league?
Players will try to do more challenges or try different builds when they have ways to get better gear or already have good gears because this is the purpose of playing this game rather than getting nothing after farming again and again.

Also, why the #of losing players will be more than the pervious leagues?
Players will lose their passion for playing if they get shits again and again.
For example, without zana's crafting options, one player may not get even 1 chaos orb after he killed most of monsters in a T16 map. What if this kind of case happened for 10 times?

Make players strong enough to face more difficult end game challenges is the way to let them play more time in a league.
Make players difficult to get strong and lower the rewards will just lose players. THAT'S ALL.

Its a combination of things.

1) Burn out, play the game long enough and it doesnt matter what new content or league or added.

2) General progression DOESNT take as long thanks to the crafting systems in place. What actually takes long is the RNG related to the atlas and progressing the atlas.

3) People dont like the Atlas grind. Ive done it for the first time ever after coming back from 4 years of not playing and i think the way it functions sucks, most people seem to agree.

4) People feel that the starting point to progression is further, which is true in a sense. If you actually want to complete all challenges and all content that starting point is further however that doesnt in any way, shape or form detract from that fact that harvest crafting power creep speeds up all aspects of the game.



5) This leagues mechanic is engaged at any point in the game, however the only true engagement that matters is in the end game, which many dont like. I agree with them, theres no reason to gate the end game league boss behind a 1-2% spawn rate in T11+ maps. So all the hundreds of maps you run before hand are meaningless when it comes to engaging the final mechanic.

Tie that into the fact that Atlas isnt very fun, intuitive and quite a chore and its pretty easy to see why people could potentially not feel like playing this league or play less of it.

6) People are tried of playing the same shit, contrary to the belief that harvest helps build diversity, it actually doesnt. Next league im literally going to craft the exact same gear, for the exact same builds, theres no spice, imagination or creativity in build creation thanks to harvest. It creates a set path for you to follow because its the best option.

People seem to be forgetting the roots of ARPGS, which is FINDING good unique loot. That doesnt exist when harvest exists. People want to play the fucking game not spend their time farming fucking eggs to craft stupidly good gear that homogenizes builds and creates a BIS gearing meta regardless of the gear being perfectly rolled or not.

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Char1983 wrote:

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Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

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Char1983 wrote:

In what way, if any, is using Harvest crafts (that you have to find) for crafting more or less "free" than using Exalted Orbs (that you have to find) for crafting?

This is such a stupid fucking strawman and im not going to reply to it. You really just cant come up with an actual factual counter argument against mine, its okay.

I am just trying to understand you, because I really can't see any difference.

Isn't it obvious that Harvest is free in the sense that if I find an exalt I can sell it pretty quickly. If I find an exalts 'worth' of targeted fire re-rolls, it would take me so long to sell them that it wouldn't be worth the time and effort. Therefore the pile of Harvest crafts, rendered practically unsellable, become a use-it-or-lose-it proposition. Which is to say you can take and use your free crafts or light them on fire.

If crafts were infinitely stackable and storeable then sure, piling up fire re-rolls would be the same as piling up chaos orbs or any other currency and then selling them in bulk, at which point there would be an equivalent opportunity cost to their use.

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innervation wrote:

Isn't it obvious that Harvest is free in the sense that if I find an exalt I can sell it pretty quickly. If I find an exalts 'worth' of targeted fire re-rolls, it would take me so long to sell them that it wouldn't be worth the time and effort. Therefore the pile of Harvest crafts, rendered practically unsellable, become a use-it-or-lose-it proposition. Which is to say you can take and use your free crafts or light them on fire.

If crafts were infinitely stackable and storeable then sure, piling up fire re-rolls would be the same as piling up chaos orbs or any other currency and then selling them in bulk, at which point there would be an equivalent opportunity cost to their use.

In SSF, Harvest is exactly the same as currency (used to be better than most currency because it was more deterministic).

But in trade, I agree.

This is exactly why more players interacted with the previous Harvest version and crafting, because it didnt make you feel like you were throwing away currency down the gamble machine.

OK, that point I can understand - but both of them are "free" in the sense that you just find them, with no particular investment usually, and both of them are not "free" in the sense that they are available unlimitedly (is that even a word?).

So we want the threads to be filled with "POE IS DEAD" sooner each league cause every Tom Dick n Harry can easily craft stuff using deterministic crafting? Nty.

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Necrotekk wrote:

So we want the threads to be filled with "POE IS DEAD" sooner each league cause every Tom Dick n Harry can easily craft stuff using deterministic crafting? Nty.

I briefly checked your characters... my guess is its all items that were dropped or traded (for very, very cheap except the 6L chests).

Do you have even a single piece of crafted gear? If not, why not since Harvest made it so easy?

If yes, which piece is it? I dont think you have a single T1 roll, much less more than one, much less 6.


To be clear, I eschew maxxing out gear myself, and I am in no way mocking or putting down your gear. But I just find it odd you seem strongly against crafting, when you dont craft, nor purchase well crafted gear.

I'm not much of a crafter because I'm not much of a gambler.

All I know is that I did my 200 harvests to meet the "challenge" and they were mostly crap and no where near worth the 12c they cost to bring into a map.

For me its, something i can make plans to make my own items even if it will take a long grind but still fun and reachable against need to farm hundreds of exalts to buy from market.

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PrinnySlave wrote:

For me its, something i can make plans to make my own items even if it will take a long grind but still fun and reachable against need to farm hundreds of exalts to buy from market.

I'd say that's the core part of why so many players liked harvest. You actually had a clear way of progression ahead of you. It took a lot of grinding but you knew at the end of it there would be an upgrade waiting. Without harvest there is only hoping for a lottery win to improve your gear or grind currency without end to hopefully get the few dozens or even hundred exalts you need to buy an upgrade. It's just so unsatisfying. Even with trade and all that grinding effort, at the end the upgrade isn't your own, it's just something someone else made.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

Spoiler

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PrinnySlave wrote:

For me its, something i can make plans to make my own items even if it will take a long grind but still fun and reachable against need to farm hundreds of exalts to buy from market.

I'd say that's the core part of why so many players liked harvest. You actually had a clear way of progression ahead of you. It took a lot of grinding but you knew at the end of it there would be an upgrade waiting. Without harvest there is only hoping for a lottery win to improve your gear or grind currency without end to hopefully get the few dozens or even hundred exalts you need to buy an upgrade. It's just so unsatisfying. Even with trade and all that grinding effort, at the end the upgrade isn't your own, it's just something someone else made.

And this is why I never understood TencentGGGs own choice to not implement a proper "lock" affix akin to split/mirrored that would apply on the item at the first interaction with Harvest, which would limit Harvest mods to be applied BY ONLY SAID ITEM "OWNER" - so Harvest crafting would have been preserved even at generous 3.13 levels.

Bonus points if they would have adjusted danger/reward ratios of relevant mods, like influence slamming being available only in Harvests on rare corrupted T16 maps with a minimum Aw 8 Atlas level, and with certain mods applied - interlocking a scarab that applies Shaper influence could have added higher chance to slam Shaper influence for example...

Having Harvest as the "end goal" could have been toned down by simply having it locked at a specific tier level - below T1 mods on all content, below T2 on <T15 map tier and so on, so those "perfect items with T0/1 mods" would still be difficult to obtain...

So many options, yet TencentGGG succeeded in picking the worst implementation as their "solution" to getting Harvest "in line"...

Not to mention their focus on craft + trade while letting "dropped loot" be abysmal for so long...

And that is also a "vision" problem...

TencentGGG should have comprehended a very long time ago that in ARPGs getting a "chase" drop, even for rare items, IS AS IMPORTANT as having some chase uniques or currency THAT YOU CAN ACTUALLY LOOT in a "timely" manner without forcing the player base to "pool resources"...