What's wrong with deterministic crafting?

I think one thing opponents of deterministic crafting get wrong is that all deterministic crafting should be as powerful as Harvest.

Many people want deterministic crafting that is not STRONGER than other methods, just less gambling.

So what would non-powerful deterministic crafting look like?

Right now you can chaos spam a weapon and gamble on hitting a jackpot (T1 increased damage, T1 flat damage, speed, crit, whatever).

What if instead you could slowly improve the weapon with chaos. Like use a chaos, and the weapon gains 0.1% increased physical damage, so simply to hit Tier 1 physical damage it would take 1,700 chaos roughly. For a single Tier 1 roll.

That is not particularly powerful given the cost, not more so than current methods. It is, however, more deterministic.

Dont mistake deterministic for power.

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trixxar wrote:

I think one thing opponents of deterministic crafting get wrong is that all deterministic crafting should be as powerful as Harvest.

Then use the benchcraft.

Too bad they killed multimod as well. 2 mods max isn't much in terms of crafting is it?

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Baharoth15 wrote:

The only thing i need, or rather want, from an ARPG is a clear means of progression. For most of my builds i've hit a point where this is no longer realistic already. Would be fine for me if i had reached like 80-90 of the potential but i have 10-20% of what's potentially possible, at most.

Same here. And the result is a pretty absurd power differential between players, which leads to balancing problems.

Then again, I am not too sure GGG would want to reduce that power differential for balancing reasons, because that would make all their other balancing problems more obvious.

In any case, progression for my characters in Standard league has stopped entirely now, which kind of makes playing them pointless. And yes, I play Standard league somewhat regularly (not this patch though), because I don't want to commit the time it would require to make useful progress in league, especially not in summer.

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yamface wrote:

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trixxar wrote:

I think one thing opponents of deterministic crafting get wrong is that all deterministic crafting should be as powerful as Harvest.

Then use the benchcraft.

Indeed, there SHOULD be a benchcraft for almost everything, at a reasonable cost.

Your choice should be gamble and maybe get it cheap, or spend a lot and get it with certainty.

It should not be - gamble, gamble, gamble, gamble, gamble.



Thats the crux of the discussion, no?

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trixxar wrote:

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yamface wrote:

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trixxar wrote:

I think one thing opponents of deterministic crafting get wrong is that all deterministic crafting should be as powerful as Harvest.

Then use the benchcraft.

Indeed, there SHOULD be a benchcraft for almost everything, at a reasonable cost.

Your choice should be gamble and maybe get it cheap, or spend a lot and get it with certainty.

It should not be - gamble, gamble, gamble, gamble, gamble.



Thats the crux of the discussion, no?

ok...

so use the benchcraft

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trixxar wrote:

Thats the crux of the discussion, no?

No its not.
Crafting or Harvest is just the surface level.

What this is really about is how much power should players have, how much effort should they put towards this end and how is this going to affect the overall balancing of the game.

It's not really, at least not for me and probably not for many other people here either. It's not about having an easy way to a lot of power, it's about a clear road that you can follow to get more.

They can keep the power ceiling as it is, make it hard as hell and grindy as hell as much as they want to, i really don't care but i want to have a certain reward at the end of it.

It's like with making 6 links really. You can pick to gamble and be lucky to get it in a few fusions, or you can save them and use 1500 to get it guaranteed. Having the guaranteed result is actually worse statistically, on average you have to invest more than if you just gambled and that's fine for me, i still go for the recipe 9 times of 10 though because i know what i get at the end. I even went through the trouble of collecting 60 unique rings from drops to create my own loreweave and then spend the 1500 fusions needed to 6 link it myself instead of just buying a linked version from someone else simply because i feel it's more meaningful that way.

That's the kind of stuff i want for gear progression in general. If it costs 100 EX to get a certain gear piece via gambling on average, give me a way to have it guaranteed for 200 ex. That way i have a goal to work towards, no matter how long it is. Right now i can just fumble around like a moron and hope to get lucky at some point. Or ofc, buy the lucky result of someone else.

Getting lucky every now and then is nice and exiting and they should by all means keep that in the game but also give people a way to work for their rewards.

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That's the kind of stuff i want for gear progression in general. If it costs 100 EX to get a certain gear piece via gambling on average, give me a way to have it guaranteed for 200 ex.

It's a fair aim, but the current crafting-system of the game does not support that, and so aren't other systems in other games.
Personally I don't see why people have such a huge problem with the crafting in PoE.
If we have a look at LE, you can only guarantee low rolls of stats. The higher you push them (in term of PoE pushing towards T2/T1 mods that is) the more likely the item will brick. And on top of that you cannot get T1/T2 mods at all via crafting, you need to drop them (not necessarily a bad thing, but that's a different topic).
If you look at other games where you simply upgrade your gear it has a chance to go up and a chance to go down, so it's down to RNG as well to get the best stuff.

Why do people assume PoE needs to have deterministic crafting when literally no other game i've ever played does not have it eigher?

And on top of that, the amount of deterministic stuff you can do here is unprecedented for me - awakener Orb into multimodding gives you 4 out of 6 stats through deterministic ways. What else is needed to make people happy? Oh yeah... Old harvest I guess

At the end of Harvest League I remember a discussion on reddit where someone asked to the crowd: would u be OK if Harvest is implemented just as it is now but with only tier 3 mods possible as best results?
Most of the people went mad about that.
I then learned that most of the people didn't really want a "clear path of progression". Most people just wanted a relatively "easy" path to get (completely unnecessary to clear the whole game) perfect items.