What's wrong with deterministic crafting?

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Baharoth15 wrote:

There is one hell of a large gap between 3 tripple res with nothing else and perfect items. I mean do i really have to explain to you why 6 x Tier 4 mods is way better than 3 times tier 3? You can do basic math right?

This remark makes no fucking sense.

I literally just linked you a helmet, with 3 Resists, 2xT-3 and 1xT2 with a T4% AR/EV and T3% Hybird, with Mastercrafted life which is T4 equiv.

You just called it "unusable" vendor trash, yet its literally an example of an item that you want to be able to deterministically get.

You contradicted yourself soo easily LOL

Its pretty clear what youre actual intentions are based off your previous posts and your now, obviously contradicting statements. No need to even respond to you anymore, you just want freebies.

Even funnier, your characters are literally even using equivalent to what i linked as an example. Ironic. So why are you using them on your characters? Oh thats right, because theyre mediocre pieces that work just fine.

But wait! According to you its vendor trash, so why are you wearing them on your characters ? HMMMM.

You should probably vendor those items now, right ? After all they suck and arent usable right ?

No, i actually said it's "not quite vendor trash" but i guess you were so busy beating your little strawman that you failed to notice. It's just at some point you'll grow out of having any use for stuff like that. And no, this item is not what i was talking about.

AR/EV isn't really a useful stat on most builds and that stun block recovery is the definition of useless in a game where you have to be either stun immune or use brine king pantheon if you don't want to get stun locked to death. Having to waste the bench craft for a basic requirement like life also is more of a down side than an upside.

Anyway you seem to be more interested in beating strawmans and personal attacks rather than having an actual conversation so i'll excuse myself at this point.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

No, i actually said it's "not quite vendor trash" but i guess you were so busy beating your little strawman that you failed to notice. It's just at some point you'll grow out of having any use for stuff like that. And no, this item is not what i was talking about.

AR/EV isn't really a useful stat on most builds and that stun block recovery is the definition of useless in a game where you have to be either stun immune or use brine king pantheon if you don't want to get stun locked to death. Having to waste the bench craft for a basic requirement like life also is more of a down side than an upside.

Anyway you seem to be more interested in beating strawmans and personal attacks rather than having an actual conversation so i'll excuse myself at this point.

Strawmans and personal attacks ? LOL

"Not mediocre or good, not quite vendor trash".

"i wouldnt even bother trading for 20 alchs"

So what youre saying is its vendor trash to you. Anyone who reads that entire statement would come to that conclusion that you obviously eluded to. Dont sit here and say personal attacks when youre going to say "i have to wonder what level you play this game at if you trade for 20 alchs" LOL.

Nothing i said is a strawman and nothing is a personal attack, im pointing out your contradicting statements especially when it comes to the irony that is your characters itemization after you took a dump on the item linked.

Armour and EV isnt useful ? Says who ? Do you know how damage mitigation works because if you did you wouldnt be saying that. Yet another statement that makes no sense.

The only way anyone would say theyre useless is if they plan on creating a double elevated awakened piece. Thats no where fucking near T4-3 in power scaling lol

> greater than % armour for obvious reasons, not elevated, not awakened/double influenced. That shit is no where near "yeah thats about T4-3 equiv and i should be able to make items like this completely deterministically with ease".

Still working on this piece too, cost me 4 ex soo far because im too picky to get a crappy additional suffix. This item is way beyond "T4-3".

Nothing like it even exists in temp.

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Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

No it doesnt lol, it means i ACTUALLY PLAY THE GAME AS INTENDED. You guys literally dont even pick up items and wonder why youre poor as fuck and cant find anything of value.

Right now, I don't pick up anything because I don't play the game because it feels like it doesn't value my time. So yeah, there's that.

As for that helmet you linked, sure, it's a usable piece of equipment. But it's a hell of a long shot from a perfect item. Most people don't want or need perfect items. But at least I want options for more than triple upper-mid-tier resists plus crafted life.

What I want (and what I think is healthy for the game) is reliable ways to create good to great, but not perfect items for the build I am playing, without investing lots of hours per piece of gear. Last Epoch seems to understand that concept, and makes it progressively harder while you deterministically craft towards the item you need. PoE doesn't, but strangely enough gives you ways to almost deterministically perfect your almost-perfect items once you pass a certain threshold. Which I personally find very strange.

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Orbaal wrote:

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trixxar wrote:

Thats the crux of the discussion, no?

No its not.
Crafting or Harvest is just the surface level.

What this is really about is how much power should players have, how much effort should they put towards this end and how is this going to affect the overall balancing of the game.

I dont think so. Or, perhaps it is to you.

To me, its more about HOW they put in the effort.

Is it gambling, or deterministic? Thats the point.

The power ceiling, ease, and game balance are different topics. Why are they different? Because you could set them all independently of how crafting/gambling works.

You could keep gambling, but make it very likely to get strong items easily, and have a very high power ceiling.

Or, you could make it deterministic, with a low power ceiling.

See? Different topics.

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trixxar wrote:

Or, you could make it deterministic, with a low power ceiling.

See? Different topics.

Nope coz what you mentioned there is already covered by several mechanics.
Its just not good enough, there is still some rudimentary element of gambling left and the ceiling isnt high enough.

Thats whats fueling this debate and this is why its not going anywhere.
The devs gotta do better than this, the outcome has to be guaranteed, it has to be good as well and it cant take investment nor time - does no one think of the casuals right?

Basically gimme all and gimme now or else.


Ive had this debate several times now and every single time I suggested something like this:
Revive old Harvest, but remove T3+ rolls from the pool. T4 is the best you can do. Wanna know how much support I got?
Zero, zilch, nada, niente.

The counter argument always was:
"Nah make it at least T2. I´ll wave T1 rolls thats fine, but I gotta have T2 rolls across the board! Thats totally not powerful at all, trust me because I says so"
Every Single Time

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Char1983 wrote:

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Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

No it doesnt lol, it means i ACTUALLY PLAY THE GAME AS INTENDED. You guys literally dont even pick up items and wonder why youre poor as fuck and cant find anything of value.

Right now, I don't pick up anything because I don't play the game because it feels like it doesn't value my time. So yeah, there's that.

As for that helmet you linked, sure, it's a usable piece of equipment. But it's a hell of a long shot from a perfect item. Most people don't want or need perfect items. But at least I want options for more than triple upper-mid-tier resists plus crafted life.

What I want (and what I think is healthy for the game) is reliable ways to create good to great, but not perfect items for the build I am playing, without investing lots of hours per piece of gear. Last Epoch seems to understand that concept, and makes it progressively harder while you deterministically craft towards the item you need. PoE doesn't, but strangely enough gives you ways to almost deterministically perfect your almost-perfect items once you pass a certain threshold. Which I personally find very strange.

If thats what you want then you should be PERFECTLY fine with how the game is right now because thats exactly how it works right now.

That helmet isnt relative to what you just said that was used as an example to counter the other persons argument of wanting multiple lower tier mods easily available, they already are. However as seen in the last few posts with that individual, it shifted from "i want deterministic low tier mods" to "those mods suck and arent usable". So which is it ? Obviously contradictory statements being made within the same page of posts makes zero sense to me especially when an individual is using gear on par with whats linked, so obviously its usable, available.

You can buy items like that for a few chaos if that. After 2 weeks into any league all items that could be considered mid tier like that drop significantly in price as people start using harvest on high tier bases. As people climb into higher maps more and more midtier gear is generated dropping the price significantly. You cant convince me that theres not a single item that has 4-5 stats you want sitting in the T3-4 range that you cant easily purchase for a few alchs or chaos, after all ive been selling items like that all league. Even now my 5-30 alch tab is still selling items. Some are sitting, i could lower prices, but its soo close to the end of the league that at this point id probably give it away for free if its sat a while.

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Orbaal wrote:

Ive had this debate several times now and every single time I suggested something like this:
Revive old Harvest, but remove T3+ rolls from the pool. T4 is the best you can do. Wanna know how much support I got?
Zero, zilch, nada, niente.

The counter argument always was:
"Nah make it at least T2. I´ll wave T1 rolls thats fine, but I gotta have T2 rolls across the board! Thats totally not powerful at all, trust me because I says so"
Every Single Time

I think if you tried to wear Tier 4 rolls in endgame, it would make a lot of builds non-viable.

Honestly I don't think the Tier of the roll was the problem, it was remove/aug/or the combo.

If you could roll Tier 1s, but you couldn't keep removing and replacing, it would take 50,000 maps to get a full Tier 1 item.

There is so much hyperbole in how powerful Harvest items are. In reality it was 50 to 100 ex to even get close to maxxing out a single piece of gear, if you were lucky, if no one stole it during your harvest crafts, if your mods were not super rare.

But its "SOOO easy for all players to get maxxed gear in Harvest". Not really, a single item costing more than most builds do is not easy.

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Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

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Char1983 wrote:

What I want (and what I think is healthy for the game) is reliable ways to create good to great, but not perfect items for the build I am playing, without investing lots of hours per piece of gear. Last Epoch seems to understand that concept, and makes it progressively harder while you deterministically craft towards the item you need. PoE doesn't, but strangely enough gives you ways to almost deterministically perfect your almost-perfect items once you pass a certain threshold. Which I personally find very strange.

If thats what you want then you should be PERFECTLY fine with how the game is right now because thats exactly how it works right now.

No, it isn't, and you know that.

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trixxar wrote:

Honestly I don't think the Tier of the roll was the problem, it was remove/aug/or the combo.

Interesting.

If Im not misreading this, then the issue with Harvest was that you could deterministically add and remove certain mods until you got what you wanted?


But yeah I agree. That was the problem and it was way too easy - thats not hyperbole. I tested it extensively and it worked like a charm.
Harvest had to be nerfed and it had to be nerfed hard. I also said it plenty times and will say it here again: I dont agree with the way Harvest was nerfed and would rather have it removed entirely.

Crafting was fine before Harvest and its still fine now.
People are just upset they cant get what they want anymore - and thats the real mistake GGG made. You cant hand out free candy, then take it away and hope nothing bad will happen.
This was a serious blunder and thats why I was opposing Harvest going core from the start. There is no way to implement deterministic crafting on a powerlevel Harvest provided without facing massive issues down the road.

Just as an annecdote: In another Harvest thread someone presented a 9link Helmet and was mad about Harvest being nerfed. Because he - as a casual - cant have 9link Helmets anymore. This person was completely unaware of the fact that if casuals have access to this sort of gear the Devs will react with massive buffs to mobs across the board.
His helmet wasnt proving Harvest was needed in the game as he hoped, it was proving Harvest needed to be killed with fire.