What's wrong with deterministic crafting?

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Orbaal wrote:

If Im not misreading this, then the issue with Harvest was that you could deterministically add and remove certain mods until you got what you wanted?

Yes, because in many cases it allows you to specifically target 1 affix on an item at a time, leading to it acting like a (very expensive and/or slow, RNG-gated) item editor. Hence why remove+aug was deleted, and aug/remove/remove-non-x+aug+x are now incredibly rare and also don't work on Influenced items.

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Orbaal wrote:

Ive had this debate several times now and every single time I suggested something like this:
Revive old Harvest, but remove T3+ rolls from the pool. T4 is the best you can do. Wanna know how much support I got?
Zero, zilch, nada, niente.

The counter argument always was:
"Nah make it at least T2. I´ll wave T1 rolls thats fine, but I gotta have T2 rolls across the board! Thats totally not powerful at all, trust me because I says so"
Every Single Time

For what it's worth, I'd be 100% supportive of buffed Harvest with T4 roll limit alongside current Harvest. In fact, I basically suggested the same thing in my Ultimatum wall o' text write-up: https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3140904

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Stuff I disliked
Harvest can't be used for casual item crafting anymore. The best you can get is slightly infused chaos spam. I really wish there were a better way of enabling gradual progression towards better items for players wanting items worth less than an exalt, or maybe up to 2 exalt items. [Suggestion] The way I would personally implement this is restoring OP crafts like remove x add x (and greatly increasing the chance of OP crafts like add X by itself, remove X by itself), but ONLY for itemlevel 74 and below. This prevents Harvest from becoming an "item editor" for the top-level high-end crafters, while still allowing the average joe to drop a pair of Spiked Gloves and think, "hey, I could use Harvest to make some gloves with 70+ Life, resists, and maybe like 8% attack speed."

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For what it's worth, I'd be 100% supportive of buffed Harvest with T4 roll limit alongside current Harvest. In fact, I basically suggested the same thing in my Ultimatum wall o' text write-up:

Same here. I also suggested a solution like that, among others, many times during this topic but it was always refused as too powerful by the gambling addicts. There are so many ways to give players deterministic results without raising the power cap at all, GGG and the anti-harvest faction are just too blind or stubborn to see it. 6 link recipe is a prime example of crafting done right. They are so scared of everyone getting 6xT1 items that they had to kill it with fire no matter how much it hurts the game.

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I think if you tried to wear Tier 4 rolls in endgame, it would make a lot of builds non-viable.

There would probably be some real bottom tier builds left that would have a hard time dealing with endgame content but overall i think you overestimate the impact that top end rolls have. Having 6 mods that all support your build on every item is leagues beyond what the current average player has and more than enough to tackle all endgame content even on builds that don't scale as well as the current top tier ones.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

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I think if you tried to wear Tier 4 rolls in endgame, it would make a lot of builds non-viable.

There would probably be some real bottom tier builds left that would have a hard time dealing with endgame content but overall i think you underestimate the impact that top end rolls have. Having 6 mods that all support your build on every item is leagues beyond what the current average player has and more than enough to tackle all endgame content even on builds that don't scale as well as the current top tier ones.

Id like to add that you could still ID items with 3-4 synergizing T2+ rolls.
Then strip those of the non-synergizing rolls, add a T3 benchcraft and 1-2 T4 Harvestcrafts afterwards.

This isnt mirrortier, not even close to, but its still far better than the gear most players are actually using in endgame and more than good enough to beat the entire game comfortably.
Hopefully you wouldnt be able to mass produce crazy gear though, sparking the inevitable reaction by the Devs and make this entire procedure mandatory fairly early on in endgame and end up in the same spot we are in right now.

This is the point why I suggested this several times and its nice to see some support for a change.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

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For what it's worth, I'd be 100% supportive of buffed Harvest with T4 roll limit alongside current Harvest. In fact, I basically suggested the same thing in my Ultimatum wall o' text write-up:

Same here. I also suggested a solution like that, among others, many times during this topic but it was always refused as too powerful by the gambling addicts. There are so many ways to give players deterministic results without raising the power cap at all, GGG and the anti-harvest faction are just too blind or stubborn to see it. 6 link recipe is a prime example of crafting done right. They are so scared of everyone getting 6xT1 items that they had to kill it with fire no matter how much it hurts the game.

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I think if you tried to wear Tier 4 rolls in endgame, it would make a lot of builds non-viable.

There would probably be some real bottom tier builds left that would have a hard time dealing with endgame content but overall i think you overestimate the impact that top end rolls have. Having 6 mods that all support your build on every item is leagues beyond what the current average player has and more than enough to tackle all endgame content even on builds that don't scale as well as the current top tier ones.

"Everyone who disagrees is a gambling addict and anti-harvest faction and blind and stubborn".

You really just compared linking to item modifiers, think about how stupid that is.

Your replies are still contradicting what you just say multiple posts ago. Name one build that requires 6xT-4-3 items that cant be bought for a couple alchs or chaos or with one or two open mods that cant just be crafted on. Ill wait as your argument gets more and more ridiculous with every passing comment.

Also youre severely underestimating the kind of gear "average players" have. Go ask global chat to link their items or better yet go see whats being crafted everyday by normals on reddit via discord or item showcase. Its soo easy to disprove your claims in soo many ways than i already have.

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Char1983 wrote:

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Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

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Char1983 wrote:

What I want (and what I think is healthy for the game) is reliable ways to create good to great, but not perfect items for the build I am playing, without investing lots of hours per piece of gear. Last Epoch seems to understand that concept, and makes it progressively harder while you deterministically craft towards the item you need. PoE doesn't, but strangely enough gives you ways to almost deterministically perfect your almost-perfect items once you pass a certain threshold. Which I personally find very strange.

If thats what you want then you should be PERFECTLY fine with how the game is right now because thats exactly how it works right now.

No, it isn't, and you know that.

It is, or else my inventory wouldnt be filled with that kind of shit for sale for a few alchs or chaos each.

You can sit here and try to say it doesnt but the fact is, anyone who actually plays the game knows it does and saying it does, so why are there a few vocal minorities screaming at the top of their lungs that it doesnt ? LOL

Not a single argument posting in any "buff harvest" thread boils down to anything more than "harvest sucks because i dont know how to use it and im going to complain about it until i can make 6xT1 for free!".

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Nubatron wrote:

At the core of POE (and this genre really) is monster killing for the purpose of loot hunting to wear and trade. Harvest was a glorified item editor, effectively removing one of the main purposes of killing monsters.

You remove one of the primary goals and main forms of friction to success and the game loses purpose.

They made the right call with Harvest; except the part where they put it back into the game as they did last league. That was a mistake. You can't unring the bell easily.

Let's all remember this the next time someone makes the argument "what's the harm with trying [whatever], and if it doesn't work, then just remove it."

Yeah, community is nutters is what it breaks down to. I still remember all the psychotic posts made by people when ST/COC were nerfed. That was a non-stop stream of tears for literally years.

Really no different than the old "Legacy item" complainers too. "I dont have this item so why is it being nerfed?! OMFG GGG you suck im going to quit, never play again and never spend money on your terrible game again!".

Its give me syndrome.

Meanwhile anyone with a legacy item "Yeah that makes sense and is understandable why its being nerfed. Sucks that it wont be as good but its still usable".

Theyll get over it eventually, or wont and leave. Meanwhile game still slowly increases its player retention over time and still make plenty of income without those people. I still remember all the people claiming "games dead now that cast on crit is!". Melodramatic and hilarious.

A good analogy for the harvest nerf is, You have a Christmas tree. You have your Christmas star at the top and tons of presents underneath the tree. GGG comes by and slaps the star off the top of the tree, but theres still presents underneath the tree. The only one whos going to care about the star are probably your mom and dad as its a family heirloom but outside of that no one else gives a shit because their presents are still there waiting to be opened. One day that star will be yours and passed down to you but in the mean time, you dont care about it because you have all these fantastic gifts lying in wait.



Thats literally the best way to equate the harvest nerf in an easy to understand way that shows the ridiculousness of the whining being done.

Welp, just ripped on a T11 with my 300 dps 1h sword.

Hundreds of alts, likely hundred or more chaos, beast craft attempts, splits, essences, delve, harvest, etc. It never got better than what I already had.

Dreaded the move into red maps as I knew my DPS was trash. Sure enough after a couple days in red maps I get creamed. Too long to kill anything your risk of death goes through the roof. Still can't believe I rolled all that currency and got nothing out of it.

I'm gonna skip 3.15 entirely if it's not a PvP league. Gonna play something a little less aggravating.

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Izrakhan wrote:

Welp, just ripped on a T11 with my 300 dps 1h sword.

Hundreds of alts, likely hundred or more chaos, beast craft attempts, splits, essences, delve, harvest, etc. It never got better than what I already had.

Dreaded the move into red maps as I knew my DPS was trash. Sure enough after a couple days in red maps I get creamed. Too long to kill anything your risk of death goes through the roof. Still can't believe I rolled all that currency and got nothing out of it.

I'm gonna skip 3.15 entirely if it's not a PvP league. Gonna play something a little less aggravating.

all that money wasted to craft a sword that can be done in a couple harvest rolls? like really.... its not even hard to do a 400 dps sword in fact you can almost do 400 dps from just alts and the benchcraft.....

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yamface wrote:

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Izrakhan wrote:

Welp, just ripped on a T11 with my 300 dps 1h sword.

Hundreds of alts, likely hundred or more chaos, beast craft attempts, splits, essences, delve, harvest, etc. It never got better than what I already had.

Dreaded the move into red maps as I knew my DPS was trash. Sure enough after a couple days in red maps I get creamed. Too long to kill anything your risk of death goes through the roof. Still can't believe I rolled all that currency and got nothing out of it.

I'm gonna skip 3.15 entirely if it's not a PvP league. Gonna play something a little less aggravating.

all that money wasted to craft a sword that can be done in a couple harvest rolls? like really.... its not even hard to do a 400 dps sword in fact you can almost do 400 dps from just alts and the benchcraft.....

Yep. LOL.

Also virtually any "Meh" paradoxica is better. And a 300pdps weapon isnt expensive at all because all you need to do is roll any sort of hybird % + flat roll then unveil it with Aisling for the %/ailment and you automatically have like a 400-500 pdps 1h weapon... lol Obviously bench craft is another option as well there, you just bench either total % or %/ailment and youre good to go... lol

You can even view items in POETRADE for their time listed. Tons of 300 pdps weapons unsold for over a month for super cheap.

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yamface wrote:

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Izrakhan wrote:

Welp, just ripped on a T11 with my 300 dps 1h sword.

Hundreds of alts, likely hundred or more chaos, beast craft attempts, splits, essences, delve, harvest, etc. It never got better than what I already had.

Dreaded the move into red maps as I knew my DPS was trash. Sure enough after a couple days in red maps I get creamed. Too long to kill anything your risk of death goes through the roof. Still can't believe I rolled all that currency and got nothing out of it.

I'm gonna skip 3.15 entirely if it's not a PvP league. Gonna play something a little less aggravating.

all that money wasted to craft a sword that can be done in a couple harvest rolls? like really.... its not even hard to do a 400 dps sword in fact you can almost do 400 dps from just alts and the benchcraft.....

Do you always selectively read what people post?

I said I went through all that. Alts, regals, harvest, pure chaos spam, essences, etc.

Got one T2 roll so regal'd and got T9 ele. Split it and regal'd again and got T9 ele.

Trade isn't an option in SSF HC.