I don't want to play your totem starter build. Why do you keep suggesting I game the game the way you want to?
That's not strategy that's just exploiting a broken game system. I know of course that builds like FP totems exist. I don't want to play them right now.
I also said I don't want Harvest. I'd much rather have better loot drop from mobs. I also don't want to farm plants.
Ritual and Ultimatum of course didn't give me anything I needed either. That's another problem. The game rewards no lifers.
The fuck do you mean its not a strategy lmfao ? Most people who play this game level up as something and farm maps as something in order to make the build that actually want.
No ones saying you have to play our way, we are saying stop making suggestions because youre a masochist and feel entitled to playing a certain way in which the game isnt actually supposed to be played.
In what world does someone go... "Mmm yeah im gonna play a 300ex COC build as my started build" ? Literally no one. They make the swap when they have sufficient currency and gear for it. You try that and you literally just die over and over again and dont progress.
So the real question is, why do you feel the need to complain when youre literally setting yourself up for failure and then blaming it all on the game when in reality, it isnt the games fault, its yours ?
This is an extreme strawman you're beating on here. I didn't say I wanted to play a 300ex COC build. I just wanted a competent 1h sword going into red maps that I didn't get despite going through hundreds of alts, chaos, essences and even splits.
I don't think you appreciate how unlucky you can be rolling starter weapons going into red maps. It can and does suck sometimes.
"Strawman" i gave an example of an absurd beginning build goal. Youre starter goal should always be farming for items/currency for the build you want, its literally how the games been played since it was made. Not a single person should walk in with the expectations of playing x/y/z build unless they intend to put the time and effort into it. Regardless of its a 300ex COC build or a budget 5ex build.
Mate that last part makes no sense. You have literally soo much control over starter gear compared to 4 years ago. I just came back this league after 4 years of not playing. Even when i played 4 years ago we had essence and master crafting. Thats nothing however compared to harvest.
I actually respect my time and effort spent in game, why do you think i spent most my time in harvest maps ? Because harvest is the most efficient use of my time and effort. That should be true for every single person playing this game because how strong harvest is. Theres 0 reason not to use it and if you arent using it ill just say it outright, youre playing the game wrong.
I played this game for years and years on nothing more than "Alt+Aug+Regal" when thats literally how you crafted gear. You have no idea how much currency i wasted. This league ive literally just not even spent currency outside of 6L items and using mastercraft meta mods. The only currency i "blew" on crafting was me learning how shit the mod pools are using traditional methods after weights were clearly changed to compensate for the existence of all new crafting.
Harvest sucks! But look at my decked out gear two weeks in!
Labyrinth salt farm miner.
"But my build diversity" , "Game is too hard!" - Meta drone playing the same 1-3 builds for years.
And for what? Just so you can feel better?
Sorry, thats not worth it as far as Im concerned and I wont support that at all.
Well Harvest was removed so you could 'feel better' so I dont really see your point.
Calling Harvest making the game unplayable ignores that we had it for a well received league. If you were right, wouldnt people have quit immediately. After all, you said unplayable?
But to answer your question - why? Its simple. Some significant portion of the playerbase hates the current gamble-craft. They do not close their eyes and slam exalts, and never will.
The game without Harvest may be better for you, but worse for them. (Im not going to do that forums things where you pretend you know the truth for 'the majority" so please dont do it either.)
Making the game harder: Yes please! Count me in.
Im all for it. One the best leagues in recent memory was Metamorph, when GGG did buff lifepools across the board to nullify the powercreep.
What I wouldnt like tho is Harvest becoming mandatory. When I farmed Harvest extensively in 3.13 it was just busted in terms of power but also boring as hell. I still had to do it because nothing else in the game came close to what Harvest provided. I ignored everything but Harvest and that was the way to go.
I dont like that and thats why I will never support a fullblown comeback for Harvest.
I didnt even play during the full power but ive played enough this league to determine that its 100% end all be all. I made a post in the feedback forum about it in another thread but Harvests "deep level" efficiency is absolutely game breaking based off basic mathematics.
Im not a statistician but i would absolutely love to see someone whos gifted in math break it down.
Repost of what i said in one of them.
Spoiler
"
Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:
Yep, i mean im evaluating it in multiple ways.
1) Power.
2) Cost efficiency.
The power of Harvest is absolutely insane. Cuts out a HUGE pool of RNG, for me its strange that people dont understand this which clearly shows a discrepancy in game knowledge. You can tell who crafted before Harvest existed and who didnt, very easily (that or those people are being willingly ignorant).
For how much people use POEDB youd figure theyd understand the mod pools, weights, etc better but they dont. If you do youd understand Harvests true power even in its "nerfed" form. It wasnt nerfed except on the top end of making perfect items, outside of that it really doesnt affect people.
If your build requires some weirdly niche hard to make item, then you should have seen it coming. If you pick a certain build to play knowing that its going to be difficult to get the gear, that the gear is going to cost a fortune, thats on no one but you (thats also being nice too because honestly most harvest influence crafting is "fluff" its not necessary and hardly impacts a build functioning in most cases, but adds additional power for free. Tailwind, Onslaught, Elusive, etc boots are a great example of that).
From a cost efficiency point of view, nothing compares to it. Nothing comes even remotely close to it. The amount of currency it saves you by targeting a mod alone is ridiculous. Guaranteeing X mod now mean you only need to roll for the Tier. Thats huge.
You can calculate the cost efficiency of it versus normal crafting by simply looking at the modifiers weight, then comparing that weight to the cost it would take to roll that normally. People seem to be too self absorbed to look at it from that point of view though and that is THE most important way to look at it.
You spend 0 currency on Harvest. Not on getting it in maps, not on using the rolls. Even if you spend the 12c to Guarantee it in the map, that 12c is nothing versus the quantity of deterministic rolls that would otherwise cost you hundreds if not thousands of chaos to see using normal crafting methods.
Its pretty clear to me that, that is more than likely GGGs perspective on it and if you ask me, they were extremely courteous to leave it how it is now and not nerf it further. Because if you look at it purely from a numerical perspective, its completely broken.
Spoiler
Personally i think people need to experience real OG crafting where you have to Alt+Aug+Regal spam so they understand just how difficult it was. You finally got that 1-400 or 1-2000 roll ? Now you need a good Aug. Didnt get a good Aug ? Thats fine maybe the Regal can save it... Bad regal too ? Well shit i just wasted all that currency and have to restart and REPEAT THAT ENTIRE PROCRESS HUNDREDS OF TIMES.
That doesnt even count the process of 3 good rolls, then exalting. Especially after the removal of Eternal Orbs, etc. The entire process before was a fucking nightmare and insane time/currency sink.
I legitimately dont see how anyone can complain about harvest being "bad"
I tried pretty much everything this league except juicing and extreme heist. I did run basic heist in a non-efficient manner in my opinion, but nothing comes close to what you can do with Harvest. Absolutely nothing.
Edit - To add to this, not only does Harvest maps have some of the best map layouts, they also have the best secondary nodes. Grab all 6 Harvest nodes in Haewark, secondary ritual nodes. Proxima 6 harvest nodes, then go for Niko. Or breach i guess if you like breach, breach isnt a bad option but doesnt offer much more than EXP long term. I didnt delve at all this league but fossils and resonators seems very good, i used a few to craft some +3 bows for fun.
Harvest sucks! But look at my decked out gear two weeks in!
Labyrinth salt farm miner.
"But my build diversity" , "Game is too hard!" - Meta drone playing the same 1-3 builds for years.
Last edited by Tin_Foil_Hat#0111 on Jul 12, 2021, 7:31:55 PM
Well Harvest was removed so you could 'feel better' so I dont really see your point.
Calling Harvest making the game unplayable ignores that we had it for a well received league. If you were right, wouldnt people have quit immediately. After all, you said unplayable?
Dude if you quote me, do it correct and not out of context.
What I said was that the counteraction to nullify Harvest would likely make the game unplayable for most, not Harvest itself!
Besides: Harvest wasnt removed, just nerfed in a stupid way and not even that much. And yes Harvest had a terrible retention rate. It was one the weaker leagues. Look up the numbers.
"
trixxar wrote:
But to answer your question - why? Its simple. Some significant portion of the playerbase hates the current gamble-craft. They do not close their eyes and slam exalts, and never will.
The game without Harvest may be better for you, but worse for them. (Im not going to do that forums things where you pretend you know the truth for 'the majority" so please dont do it either.)
Making the game harder: Yes please! Count me in.
Im all for it. One the best leagues in recent memory was Metamorph, when GGG did buff lifepools across the board to nullify the powercreep.
What I wouldnt like tho is Harvest becoming mandatory. When I farmed Harvest extensively in 3.13 it was just busted in terms of power but also boring as hell. I still had to do it because nothing else in the game came close to what Harvest provided. I ignored everything but Harvest and that was the way to go.
I dont like that and thats why I will never support a fullblown comeback for Harvest.
I agree with mostly everything said here.
The problem isn't about making powerful items more accessible. It was the way they did it. Harvest was boring. Enough said on that.
We can absolutely have better crafting starters and better crafting options than we do right now without attaching it to a farm. Simply having better, competitive crafting recipes that deal with the dreaded T2/T2 alt spam.
Regardless of its a 300ex COC build or a budget 5ex build.
It's not even a 5ex build. You're still reaching.
I had a 300 PDPS single handed sword. That's what I was using in T11-12 maps. I could not roll anything better no matter how much I tried.
That was my point from the start. I could continue to farm yellow maps but again I don't think that's good design. Bad luck = days more of farming is just not good design.
And yes Harvest had a terrible retention rate. It was one the weaker leagues. Look up the numbers.
Ritual was the one I was referring to, which had full strength Harvest core. And it did great.
"
Orbaal wrote:
I guess we are done here.
Indeed. As you said you had a solution to Harvest (Tier 4 rolls) that one wanted, proving a point.
I've offered you an opposing solution with no power creep, proving the point it wasn't your real concern.
Lastly: You think the people against harvest nerfs are an insignificant number of players? Now thats what I call rich. You don't want to discuss it honestly, just here to troll.
Last edited by trixxar#2360 on Jul 12, 2021, 8:13:52 PM
Welp, just ripped on a T11 with my 300 dps 1h sword.
Hundreds of alts, likely hundred or more chaos, beast craft attempts, splits, essences, delve, harvest, etc. It never got better than what I already had.
Dreaded the move into red maps as I knew my DPS was trash. Sure enough after a couple days in red maps I get creamed. Too long to kill anything your risk of death goes through the roof. Still can't believe I rolled all that currency and got nothing out of it.
I'm gonna skip 3.15 entirely if it's not a PvP league. Gonna play something a little less aggravating.
all that money wasted to craft a sword that can be done in a couple harvest rolls? like really.... its not even hard to do a 400 dps sword in fact you can almost do 400 dps from just alts and the benchcraft.....
Do you always selectively read what people post?
I said I went through all that. Alts, regals, harvest, pure chaos spam, essences, etc.
Got one T2 roll so regal'd and got T9 ele. Split it and regal'd again and got T9 ele.
Trade isn't an option in SSF HC.
Do you always selectively read what people post?
Where in any of my post did I mention trade?
Or did you reply to try and lecture me about "ssf hc". I would love to see you try. Like please by all means, try it.
I for one believe that crafting is in a great place right now. Harvest seemed to be a proof of concept more than anything and was clearly never meant to carry over in it's original form.
The near item editor power one could interact with didn't sit right with an equal amount of the for and against crowd if we are being honest.
What the watered down version of harvest offers is still an amazing addition to the game and serves as just that. More options.
If anything I would like to see ggg keep exploring ways to offer other means of targeted/deterministic crafting but through crafting materials, expanding on the notion of essence crafting. That would leverage the focus on crafting choices and less on the feeling of spinning the roulette.
Mirror tier items should be the divine experience you get very few times during a games life cycle, something memorable, that left your mouth agave.
Last edited by absurdistan88#0852 on Jul 13, 2021, 1:08:03 AM
