What's wrong with deterministic crafting?

nvm

you guys are still talking about this lul

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I_NO wrote:

you guys are still talking about this lul

will you get 40 before league ends? lul

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trixxar wrote:

Ritual was the one I was referring to, which had full strength Harvest core. And it did great.

Ritual did great because of the endgame expansion with Maven and the Atlas passives not because of Harvest.
But whatever, as long as it supports your agenda you will gladly take it and ignore everything else

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trixxar wrote:

Indeed. As you said you had a solution to Harvest (Tier 4 rolls) that one wanted, proving a point.

I've offered you an opposing solution with no power creep, proving the point it wasn't your real concern.

Lastly: You think the people against harvest nerfs are an insignificant number of players? Now thats what I call rich. You don't want to discuss it honestly, just here to troll.

One person or two supporting my suggestion but dozens in another thread turning it down proof of what?

I rejected your proposal because its flatout stupid. You dont even understand what you are proposing. I checked your builds and stopped after looking at your flask setups. You cant even be bothered to get proper flaskmods and that means you are clueless, not understanding the power flasks are providing.
This is showing you dont even begin to understand why Harvests powercreep is insane and cant easily be nullified.

And no, Im not trolling. Im simply not agreeing thats all.
I get why you would say that tho. After all the only arguments you brought forward to make a case for Harvest were feelings and stupidity, so labeling someone contradicting you with a meaningless buzzword makes sense.


Have a good one

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Orbaal wrote:

Ritual did great because of the endgame expansion with Maven and the Atlas passives not because of Harvest.
But whatever, as long as it supports your agenda you will gladly take it and ignore everything else

You don't really know that. Sure the major expansion had it's influence on 3.13s success but it's also a fact that Harvest was one of, if not the most popular league mechanic during Ritual league, especially after the mid league nerfs to harbringers.

Harvest WAS incredibly popular among a large amount of players. The unparalleled shitstorm on reddit and here is proof enough of that. In GGGs long history of nerfs and questionable balance decisions nothing else ever caused such an outrage.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

Harvest WAS incredibly popular among a large amount of players. The unparalleled shitstorm on reddit and here is proof enough of that.

Not really. What it does proof is that Harvest was indeed popular amongst those who bother to post on the forums or reddit. Thats usually a very small subset of of the entire playerbase. Something like high single digit or low double digit percentages.
Which is why Im ingoring this and all other outcries.
Its nowhere near as representative as you might think.

Besides: Game developement isnt a democratic process and if I was forced to support either overly emotional gamers only caring about their own immidiate wants and needs or the actual designers being successful at their job for about a decade, I know who to back.


Doesnt mean GGG is always right or all their decisions are great. Not at all.
But I do have faith and trust in GGG making the right call longterm, whereas I have zero trust and faith in the playerbase doing the same thing.
As stated above: Most gamers only care about their own wants and needs, often times trying to hide this fact and pretending to act on behalf of others.

Also we are agreeing on the fact that Harvest was way too powerful and had to be nerfed. We might disagree on how exactly this should be done but whatever, the point still stands.
So what happend from my perspective was GGG handing out free candy, then took some of it away and people cried over it. Imagine my surprise.

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absurdistan88 wrote:

I for one believe that crafting is in a great place right now. Harvest seemed to be a proof of concept more than anything and was clearly never meant to carry over in it's original form.

The near item editor power one could interact with didn't sit right with an equal amount of the for and against crowd if we are being honest.

What the watered down version of harvest offers is still an amazing addition to the game and serves as just that. More options.

I, as a dedicated crafter, can fully support this statement. Crafting is not supposed to be 100% deterministic, as GGG explained their vision of it. If you don't like it, fine - play something like Dia3. The crafting also is not RNG as people claim, it's probabilistic. Harvest improved that part even further. It is easy, really easy to produce mid tier power items with all the options we have right now and mechanics are designed from top to bottom, not to cater to streamers rather to balance them from the position of the most effective way to use them, so others can strive to improve themselves rather than having to change the game.

In my eyes there's a fundamental problem with the attitude of many players: Instead of enjoying a game where you can actually improve from a knowledge- and effectiveness-perspective they completely ignore individual shortcomings and ask the game to cater to them rather than overcoming their own inabilities.

I was always very good in understanding complex stuff, but I had the classic "i need to pick up everything with value" illness, meaning my levelingtime through the campaign was abysmal. Did I ask the game to drop less, making the campaign shorter, giving me instant access to maps sind I have played the campaign in the past? No. I sat my butt down, studied tie23, tytykiller, Ventrua, Quantrik, Imexile and many others out of the racing-community and for the better half of 2 leagues now I trained. Now I have my former 14hours to maps down to 4.30h with unoptimized builds and am constantly in the top 50 of blitz-races with like 1.05h to dominus. I worked on my gaming rather than blaming others and that's whar people need to learn to do.

Even for SSF, as long as there are people in a freaking gauntlet killint uber elder in 1-2 days I don't accept people crying over how hard the crafting is. Improve, learn the game. There's plenty that suddently gets possible when u put in the work

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Not really. What it does proof is that Harvest was indeed popular amongst those who bother to post on the forums or reddit. Thats usually a very small subset of of the entire playerbase. Something like high single digit or low double digit percentages.
Which is why Im ingoring this and all other outcries.
Its nowhere near as representative as you might think.

So the 90% of the playerbase that never made it past act 10 Kitava didn't complain about endgame related nerfs.. that sure is a suprise but hardly even relevant. When talking about endgame related changes i'd say it's fair to only consider the part of the community that is actually involved with the content i.e the reddit/forum community. Saying it's fine because the 90% of people who'll never even see it and therefor don't care didn't complain can hardly be called an argument.

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GGG explained their vision of it

Sorry but are you serious? Their "vision of crafting" was literally "close your eyes and slam exalts". Word for word. Do you really consider this anywhere remotely close to being crafting?

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Baharoth15 wrote:

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Sorry but are you serious? Their "vision of crafting" was literally "close your eyes and slam exalts". Word for word. Do you really consider this anywhere remotely close to being crafting?

You´re nitpicking one statement. That is not their vision, that was a fauxpas. Their idea behind crafting is excitement in case you hit something very rare, Items having meaning, and not being able to reliably produce 6x T1 stuff as that is not supposed to exist out of millions of trys, which they adressed at some point. But I am not surprised that you focus on the one message that is the foundation of many memes to make your point rather than to focus on the actual and overall idea behind itemization that was adressed in the past as well.

I am focussing on that statement because the entirety of that manifesto went into exactly that direction and it's precisely the state of art that we have now.

Finding a useful harvest craft is basically a once in a lifetime thing now even for powergamers, the newly added beast crafts are exalts with limited targets, influenced items can't be harvest crafted at all and targeted removal of useless stats is now impossible. Long live the yolo annul!

I mean yeah, there should be rare mods and you should be exited to get them but low end crafting was crushed even harder than top end crafting by those changes. As a matter of fact, the people that care the least about those changes are the top end crafter because they use TFT and have all the exalts needed for yolo slamming.
Your average player can be happy to get 3 useful tier 3 mods on his "top end" items. Again, i am not talking about 6 x tier 1 bullshit that's just a strawman you people use all the time, i am talking about getting more than 3 or 4 mid tier mods on an item that have some sort of use.

Like take the armor of my Champion for example as it's my latest "crafting" result. Wasted a few hundred alts to get the life recovery suffix. Used a harvest reforge to get powercharges on another armor, fused them via awakener orb, used 3 x reroll prefix on it to end up with a tier 4 life roll and 2 useless filler mods. End result, about 10 EX spent (not sure about TFT price for prefix reforges but i assume 2 EX at least given how rare they are and it's also what i would have payed had i used meta crafting) for 2 influence mod, one of em low tier, a mid tier life mod and a bench craft mod. I guess i can consider myself lucky to even get the life roll that quickly and have an open prefix otherwise that item would have been vendor food. That's the quality of "crafting" you can do nowadays. The only deterministic part of it was getting the powercharges and transfering them to the other item. Rest pure RNG with a shitty outcome. Gz.

I am sure my shitty strike skill build would have gotten OP with a mid tier resist and a phys taken as lightning mod so we can't have that right? We all have to keep playing slams and meta spells to get anything done because decent gear is out the question for people that have a job besides POE.

PS: Just saw on reddit a big meta revamp announcement btw. So we can all expect further harvest nerfs and more nerfs to the few viable skills that still can keep up and maybe, just maybe, conversion trap will finally get that 5% damage increase it always needed to get viable.